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The product manager role is a mistake

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Re: The product manager role is a mistake

#81
I think most people have an incomplete understanding of what a product manager should do. It's bigger than "project management" or "project management + defining a roadmap + talking to customers."

What you are building, why, how you price it, how you speak to the market about it, how you position yourself in your category, how you partner with others to provide a better solution (either services companies to provide a turn-key solution or other software companies), how should you should allocate your engineering resources to best increase revenue, etc. And these questions touch almost every department in the company, so they have to be great communicators.

Just a few areas I routinely see bad PM's skip:

- Sales / Partner Enablement (awesome, you built something, but it doesn't matter if the field does't understand it or can explain it and its value)

- Market research / segmentation (are you building the right stuff for what you are targeting?)

- Creating new products / SKUs for opportunities within your existing target market/segments (growth)

- Identifying new/adjacent categories to develop products for (growth)

- Balancing building for today's customers vs building to get new customers

- Pricing/packaging (I'm not talking about physical product packaging)

- Build / buy / partner analysis

The Pragmatic Management Framework is a nice framework really shows the breadth of what a PM should be doing:

https://www.pragmaticinstitute.com/product/framework/

Re: The product manager role is a mistake

#84

What a weird article. A whole lot of words to say, "hiring low performers will hurt your company"? And the alternative is, "hire good people but not with the PM role"? It reads like someone had a bad experience with a PM who thought they were Steve Jobs. PMs are just ordinary people, I don't understand this supposition that anyone holding the title is going be an entitled douchbag. An org can have thousands of PMs, e…

Was going to say much the same thing.

1. Don't hire product managers because they won't be great people.

2. Instead, hire great people, but not one of them, a whole team of them!

Ok....

Re: The product manager role is a mistake

#86

The thing about PMs. They fulfill a very specific need, and that need is hard to quantify, but I can tell you that without a good PM everything falls apart. Here's a list of what they tend to do: - gather information from users on what is/isn't working for them - gather information from executives about what needs to be done to keep the company working - gather information from industry leaders who may or may not be…

In recent experience the PMs I have worked with have primarily concerned themselves with the desires of executives. Literally all the other responsibilities you mentioned were handled by others.

Re: The product manager role is a mistake

#87
In the same way "software engineer" can encompass a broad spectrum of actual job functions, "product manager" can be a highly catch-all term that varies by product, seniority, company, and even personality.

In some companies, they are essentially project managers who groom the backlog and coordinate releases with support, and (ideally) take a variety of coordination tasks off of engineers plates. At the other extreme, they're pure concept+strategy, and (ideally) provide a clear vision that allows other teams to understand where they are going and allow them to prioritize independently.

There's a few other dimensions I could probably name, but wherever someone sits on these dimensions, it is possible for them to be bad at their job - either because they're a mismatch for the job they have or because they're just not very good.

This isn't unique to PMs, of course - I have worked with a lot of engineers who are bad at their job for the same reasons. And I could s/product manager/software engineer/ in the linked article and recognize a lot of the same negative behaviors and patterns.

I think one of the reasons there are a lot of bad SWEs and PMs is that roles that were once only appealing to people who were genuinely passionate about what they were doing are now considered general purpose desirable careers. When I started working in tech 25+ years ago, most of the people who were entering the software industry found computers and technology deeply interesting, and enjoyed working in the space. When product managers started to appear as a more defined job function, the best PMs were experienced engineers, marketers, etc. who cared about and understood their users, the business problems, and could help drive things forward as the landscape became increasingly complex.

Today, there are a lot of people who enter software engineering and product management who are not particularly interested in the work. It's just a job, it's just pushing bits or paperwork around, and while many of those people are still effective, it can engender the behaviors depicted in the article.

That doesn't mean the role is a mistake, especially since the article depicts the most negative version of product management: "These PMs you hire have no vision, charisma, expertise, strong beliefs, or technical skills."

That's the problem right there - the role of a product manager is fundamentally about driving clarity. That clarity could come in the form of better requirements, customer understanding, a strategic focus, and yes, even things like metrics and goals (if they are clarifying!). If a product manager is not providing clarity, they are bad at their job. If an engineering team knows with exact clarity what they should be prioritizing all the time, they don't need a PM.

Re: The product manager role is a mistake

#88

> You hire everyday great people. Each one needs to be great at something, obsessed by their craft, and driven by quality. You then put them together in a team, without individual responsibilities, ensuring that there’s minimal overlap in areas of greatness. My current company is full of smart people, and (for a variety of reasons) we don't have product managers. It sucks . What happens is that the things a PM does d…

Product Management is a hard job. You need to be technical enough to understand whats happening and have a bullshit detector, but high EQ enough to speak human. The dumb ones become sort-of project managers, tracking another set of books for tasks. The smart ones tend to deeply understand the business and move up or out. It's also a tough role to govern in that sometimes they get alot of credit for the work of others…

I really hope you're not implying that project managers are or need to be less smart than product managers.

They are different disciplines, and like any profession there's likely more people who are not good at it than people that are.

But I've worked with great visionary product people and excellent project and program managers (and strive to be one every day myself). Neither could do the other's job well or effectively. They need to be laser focused on different things, and their EQ tends to be tuned to different wavelengths.

Re: The product manager role is a mistake

#89
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Very few engineers want to maintain relationships with customers, interview users to identify potential features, manage leadership, play politics for resource allocation, and so on Ah, so that's what a product manager is supposed to do. When product managers were introduced at a company I worked at, they did very little of any of that. They certainly weren't speaking to customers. They weren't technical, so they w…

It sounds like you had a project manager, not a product manager. A good product manager is very valuable.

Last time I saw one of these types of articles on here it quickly became apparent that a lot of companies don't know the difference and call their project managers by the wrong name.

Re: The product manager role is a mistake

#90

> You hire everyday great people. Each one needs to be great at something, obsessed by their craft, and driven by quality. You then put them together in a team, without individual responsibilities, ensuring that there’s minimal overlap in areas of greatness. My current company is full of smart people, and (for a variety of reasons) we don't have product managers. It sucks . What happens is that the things a PM does d…

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