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The product manager role is a mistake

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Re: The product manager role is a mistake

#51
I wish I could find a better framing in my head than the negative thoughts that reoccur so regularly across so many years. It's not always: but maybe half the time, there's a sadness & sense of misfortune that boils down to companies that don't trust or believe in engineers. Companies who think the people doing the work are not to be trusted or given power. And org charts that try to create corresponding hierarchies of power with workers at the bottom and lots of buffer inbetween.

The engineers are most connected to the tremendous energy. Have the most idea of potential & costs & a savvy for appreciating what is most directly possible, sharp intuitive angles towards mechanistic sympathy/finess. But are made to mete with all manners of checks, have their will impeeded. Bargained down ongoingly from doing good.

There's definitely a lot of being a junior engineer where you want or need direction. The more formal org's high-structure is good here, is predictable. But on the whole, I think companies have become far lesser for being so managed. There was a great thread recently where the discussion turned to middle management, and it was great if sad hearing such stress & strain mirrored about. I will fucking haymaker you if you mention agile again, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37894676

Re: The product manager role is a mistake

#52

> You hire everyday great people. Each one needs to be great at something, obsessed by their craft, and driven by quality. You then put them together in a team, without individual responsibilities, ensuring that there’s minimal overlap in areas of greatness. My current company is full of smart people, and (for a variety of reasons) we don't have product managers. It sucks . What happens is that the things a PM does d…

In my experience: working with a good or great PM is fun and productive. Working without a PM is ok. Working with a bad PM is somewhere between irritating and infuriating.

One of my most enjoyable experiences in regards to project management was working at a fortune 500 with an entire PM Org. The PMO grew out of IT where it was really formalized and then got its tentacles into all of the different orgs, sales, marketing, finance, etc. What an amazing force multiplier is right. Before IT would be sitting around waiting for Finance, now Finance was part of a global PM situation.

Those PMs in the PMO knew their shit, they were realistic, they understood different strategies, they handled managing up and down, and ensuring everyone knew what they had to do.

I wrote a linkedin review for my favorite PM and it's as follows:

When I first met Rajitha, she was in the process of managing a company wide Windows 7 to 10 upgrade. As it turns out I was one of the last holdouts and was badly overdue. She was incessant! I hated it!. Finally, I gave into her demands and as these things go, I was pleasantly surprised how smoothly it went.

Fast forward a few months and Rajitha was tasked to work along side myself and others on several complex tech merger/acquisition projects. Moving parts, moving people, the whole thing was a whirlwind held down by a few important people on the team, including her. My initial resentment was replaced with a new deeply held respect for her capabilities and skillset. She was amazingly diligent and focused, friendly and compassionate.

If you're get a chance to work with Rajitha, count yourself among the lucky few!

Sorry Rajitha, this recommendation is many years overdue. I was cleaning out my filing cabinet and found a stack of old Church & Dwight papers. A print out of "How I learned to stop worrying and love Direct To Consumer". A "Magneto", not "Magento" project cover, and a handwritten note -- left on my desk -- from you to make sure I followed up a task that was in my queue".

Re: The product manager role is a mistake

#53
Ridiculous. That list of tremendous people are some founders that found success. There are plenty of tremendous founders we don't hear about that didn't do as well. There are plenty of tremendous people in regular jobs that can't act like iconoclastic dickheads because they'd be rightfully fired. More importantly hugely successful organizations have found a way to reproduce their own success despite specific people not because of them.

You want to build lasting success on good process, good organization and responsible management. People come and go. Organizations stick around.

Re: The product manager role is a mistake

#54
The realization I had the other day is that we worry about bus numbers for technical details and then we have a “single wring-able neck” which right there should have told us what a snake in the grass Schwaber and his ideas are. Not even internally consistent. And capital T Toxic.

Used to be we had two or three people responsible for owning the product design. Coherence of design, despite the name, doesn’t come from a single mind. It comes from a mind that is challenged at every turn to be better. I had a friend in college who had a love-hate relationship with Stephen King. He was a fan, but lamented the fact that King refuses to have an editor. “Great beginnings, terrible endings,” was how my friend described his books. And “he needs an editor, even if he doesn’t want one.” And repeated it at the end of each book he read. Which is how we end up with King saying the Movie Ending for The Mist was better than his ending. Nobody to push back. Nobody invested with the power to call him on his bullshit.

We used to have companies with a leader of engineering that insisted on what success would look like, a leader of quality that insisted on what corners we could not cut, and a leader of development that insisted on how we were going to get there. Now we have a product owner trying to be all three and doing a shitty job at two of them. If you’re lucky.

In traditional Kanban, everyone has a veto, a strong cultural drive not to use that veto unless it’s necessary, but as soon as it’s necessary. In Scrum the illusion of adaptability is an opiate for the masses. Agile theater for a process that has become almost entirely and practically Lean. If you think you’re doing Agile when you’re doing Lean, you’re gonna have a bad time.

Re: The product manager role is a mistake

#55
This article is slick pabulum. Well written junk.

Every company relies on the quality of its people. Every company puts people into positions of responsibility. Any company would suffer if people abuse or cannot handle their responsibility. So what? Is this some kind of insight? No.

Incompetence is a problem regardless of role, and it’s more of a problem with more powerful roles. The author gives no reason why “product manager” should be his special target.

The author seems to think the solution is… teamwork? Really?

That’s it. Problem solved? No.

This article is part of a genre that extolls the amazing power of the group without discussing or acknowledging all the excellent reasons why hierarchies are so immensely popular in industry compared to self-organizing hives.

Most articles on teamwork assume the happy path. Speaking as a person with skills, experience, and strong opinions— I know what it means to collaborate with difficult people. I am one. Any company that consistently thrives with an egalitarian culture must either be tiny or it must develop a sophisticated and sober culture of conflict management. Ironically, only with strong leadership from the top can that be done.

Re: The product manager role is a mistake

#56

> You hire everyday great people. Each one needs to be great at something, obsessed by their craft, and driven by quality. You then put them together in a team, without individual responsibilities, ensuring that there’s minimal overlap in areas of greatness. My current company is full of smart people, and (for a variety of reasons) we don't have product managers. It sucks . What happens is that the things a PM does d…

Are they really that smart if they’re ignoring those things? Talking to users has always been on my list of things required for engineers. A decade+ of low-interest-rate fueled growth in the tech sector has meant a lot of us have succeeded just by showing up.

In my experience, close technical customer-developer collaboration is incredibly valuable.

What’s not great is customers arguing with engineers about which features to implement first or whether their bug report ought to have been backlogged. This is where a strong product role is essential.

Re: The product manager role is a mistake

#57

Confusing article. “We should get rid of the PM role” but also “We still need people dedicated to do PM things… but don’t call them PMs, they’re just everyday great people.” I feel like the author had a bad experience working with a PM (the MBA comment is telling) and now wants to throw the baby out with the bath water. Business scale creates + requires role specialization. Sure, there are shitty PMs, and it’s a hard…

Definitely sounds like a bad PM experience, especially with the repeated insistence about handing control of the company over to the PM.

Maybe I just have good experiences with PMs? At my company they're there to figure out what customers want and what the product should deliver, and then with our EMs to balance that with what's technically feasible and what we have capacity to implement. If an EM says "there's no way we can do that on this timeline" the PM works out some alternative plan for the product.

Re: The product manager role is a mistake

#58
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Very few engineers want to maintain relationships with customers, interview users to identify potential features, manage leadership, play politics for resource allocation, and so on Ah, so that's what a product manager is supposed to do. When product managers were introduced at a company I worked at, they did very little of any of that. They certainly weren't speaking to customers. They weren't technical, so they w…

Sounds a lot more like a project or program manager than a product manager.

And ironically it seem like the things you'd positively attribute here to a product manager used to be/are actually part of the scope of what was traditionally a "project manager" or "program manager."

For example, look at the scope and definition of a "program manager" from Microsoft or the US DoD in the 1980s, 1990s+, as well as literature describing the role of a program manager and the discipline from that time.

Re: The product manager role is a mistake

#59
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Very few engineers want to maintain relationships with customers, interview users to identify potential features, manage leadership, play politics for resource allocation, and so on Ah, so that's what a product manager is supposed to do. When product managers were introduced at a company I worked at, they did very little of any of that. They certainly weren't speaking to customers. They weren't technical, so they w…

Sounds a lot more like a project or program manager than a product manager.

Nevertheless it is the role called "product manager" at many companies.
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