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Are colonoscopies worth it?

asteriskmag.com

241–250 of 296 posts

Re: Are colonoscopies worth it?

#241
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doctors used to perform procedures with their bare hands, sometimes immediately after performing necropsies on dead bodies. This guy made the connection that such contamination was causing post-birth complications such as infections. He had his medical students wash their hands in an antiseptic solution, compiled statistics which showed lower mortality rates, was ignored, started publicly denouncing the negligence of…

It wasn’t just doctors, “a gentleman never washes his hands because a gentleman’s hands are never dirty.” Was the common thought. NB, not all men were considered gentlemen. See also surgeons cuffs on coats (blazers), so as to avoid getting blood on one’s clothes when operating, which are still called the same thing today.

Clearly they mixed up cause and effect.

"A gentleman's hands are never dirty" should have meant that he keeps them clean, not that his gentlemanliness somehow keeps them from being dirty.

Re: Are colonoscopies worth it?

#242
post #67

It’s time to share something personal again. When I was 20, I vividly remember being in the bathroom at my workplace when a large amount of blood started coming out. I did what any smart, effective 20yo would do: ignored it because I was embarrassed. Fast forward 10 years, and I’d been ignoring it for a decade. It had continued to happen every few months. Sometimes the blood was so bad I’d have to wait up to 20 minut…

> worth the small unpleasantness and major logistical annoyance. I’ve gone through it twice now. Both times, the most annoying part was the 2 or so hours they make you sit there in a hospital gown with no phone or electronics and nothing to do, while you are starving and uncomfortable and waiting to have the procedure. I don’t know if it’s like that everywhere. But would it really be that bad to let people hang on to…

> But would it really be that bad to let people hang on to their phones?

Yes, it would. The last time I had an EGD (same facilities as colonoscopy), there were 5 small rooms on each side of an aisle for patients. Some of the rooms had TVs turned on, some had patients' family members talking loudly, and of course the nurses were running all over the place, with many talking about what they did over the weekend, etc.

Would it be so bad if people learned how to chill out for 2 hours without constant stimulation?

Re: Are colonoscopies worth it?

#243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doctors used to perform procedures with their bare hands, sometimes immediately after performing necropsies on dead bodies. This guy made the connection that such contamination was causing post-birth complications such as infections. He had his medical students wash their hands in an antiseptic solution, compiled statistics which showed lower mortality rates, was ignored, started publicly denouncing the negligence of…

Doctors routinely washed their hands before Semmelweis, whose innovation was chlorinated hand washing; he ended up in a sanatorium because he went crazy (he likely had an advanced case of syphilis); the connection he made was that "cadaveric particles" were causing illness in hospitals, which is problematic because the phenomenon occurred in circumstances where no cadavers availed, but he was apparently absolutely hu…

> Doctors routinely washed their hands before Semmelweis

The cringeworthy "gentlemen don't wash their hands" culture contradicts that.

> he ended up in a sanatorium because he went crazy (he likely had an advanced case of syphilis)

I see no evidence of this so called "craziness". Even the people who speculated about the cause included "emotional exhaustion from overwork and stress" as a possibility. That's the simplest explanation, probably what happened and it's absolutely to be expected when you discover you've been unwittingly killing your patients due to the ignorance of mankind, successfully devise countermeasures and prove their effectiveness only to have your peers and the scientific community all band together to gaslight you. He ended up in an asylum because he "embarrassed" them.

> the connection he made was that "cadaveric particles" were causing illness in hospitals

Of course. More women died when he and his medical students delivered their children after working with corpses than when they didn't. The connection is there, the fact it did not fully explain the phenomena does not invalidate it. Nor does it invalidate the reduction in mortality after hand sanitization was implemented.

That this was denied despite reproducible statistical evidence is absolutely shameful for all involved and a heavy lesson for all time. Women died because of it. Don't minimize it.

Re: Are colonoscopies worth it?

#244
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what this means. Can you expand on your statement? Who is this person? What would we be farther forward to ?

Here's a tip for the future: typing a name into Wikipedia usually yields great results.

Why would you waste the chance to tell the story of Ignaz Semmelweis? I wish people asked about him more often.

Re: Are colonoscopies worth it?

#245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Weird as in saying the common practices are not correct, and here is my proposal for a better practice, as supported by statistics.

I can just imagine both how desperate you might feel when you discover that you've been (unwillingly) killing your patients, how you might refuse this reality of being a vector of health instead of the saviour or helper you picture yourself as and also how personable and convincing you'd need to be to get people past that. Semmelweiss was apparently lacking in social graces, but I wouldn't be able to behave normally…

I've seen a doctor literally commit suicide when faced with the mere possibility that he caused harm to another human being.

Re: Are colonoscopies worth it?

#246

As far as I know, countries outside the USA that recommend it are Switzerland, Germany, and Austria: https://publichealthreviews.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.11...

Canada as well.

Actually I just got a letter in Ontario for stool testing not a colonoscopy.

Re: Are colonoscopies worth it?

#247

It’s time to share something personal again. When I was 20, I vividly remember being in the bathroom at my workplace when a large amount of blood started coming out. I did what any smart, effective 20yo would do: ignored it because I was embarrassed. Fast forward 10 years, and I’d been ignoring it for a decade. It had continued to happen every few months. Sometimes the blood was so bad I’d have to wait up to 20 minut…

It’s also good know that if you’re seeing bright red blood then it’s a higher chance it’s hemorrhoids whereas dark red you definitely should get it checked because it’s coming from inside your colon. Also there’s supposedly a poop test called fecal occult blood test that has a high rate of detecting colorectal cancer that you do over the course of 3 years. I saw this on nhk Doctor's Insight: https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nh…

Bright red "live" blood can come from any part of the lower intestines. Strong-smelling feces with dark blood are called melena and are associated with bleeding in the upper gastrointestinal tract, peptic ulcers are a common cause. The reason for the difference is the blood gets digested as it passes through the gastrointestinal tract. It's not a 100% exact science, bleeding in the lower intestines might still spend enough time in the body to be digested and bleeding in the upper gastrointestinal tract might come out fast enough that it still looks red. Additional symptoms usually provide enough context for a clinical decision to be made.

> fecal occult blood test

Often used to screen patients for colonoscopies. Screening is looking for disease in the asymptomatic: "occult" means it's not visible to the naked eye, you're looking for blood even though the patient has not noticed any. The symptomatic don't need screening, they need diagnosis and thus proceed directly to colonoscopy. Or endoscopy if upper gastrointestinal tract bleeding is suspected.

Re: Are colonoscopies worth it?

#248
post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Recurrent bleeding from colon is bad, go see a doctor.” Is a fairly simple rule.

IMHO depends on the amount. If you are severely dehydrated and you notice your stool physically hurt coming out. A small amount of blood might honestly not be unexpected. Edit: To be clear “severely dehydrated” is kinda an important factor here. Point being that if the cause is obvious I dont see why you’d get a colonoscopy. Please correct me if im wrong instead of just downvoting for anyone who knows more about this…

It doesn’t matter. Go. See. A. Doctor.

Re: Are colonoscopies worth it?

#249
- In assessing risks vs. benefits, it isn't sufficient to use a single figure (e.g. 5-year relative survival rate). It's not binary. Screening which detects potential cancer does not just prevent death. It prevents the suffering and disability which may accompany late-stage detection (even if you're still alive after 5 years). Early detection could have prevented the two surgeries and rounds of chemo a friend of mine went through. Or the death of another friend after 3 rounds of surgery and 2 rounds of chemo. It could prevent living the rest of your life without normal bowel function.

Figures can't capture individual assessment of risk/benefit. Many of us buy insurance of various kinds even though the insurance companies have done some figures and expect to make money - in fact, they count on us valuing certain things above what is indicated by the raw numbers.

- The NordICC study [0] is cited by some as showing modest benefits from colonoscopies. It looks pretty good, but there's something I don't understand. They say: "Follow-up data were available for 84,585 participants in Poland, Norway, and Sweden — 28,220 in the invited group, 11,843 of whom (42.0%) underwent screening, and 56,365 in the usual-care group. A total of 15 participants had major bleeding after polyp removal. No perforations or screening-related deaths occurred within 30 days after colonoscopy." Given the number of screenings, I don't see how there could be no perforations. For example, the USPTF study [1] (see their "Supporting evidence" link) reports 5.4 perforations per 10,000 colonoscopies from colonoscopy to follow-up positive screening results and 3.1 perforations per 10,000 colonoscopies from screening colonoscopy. No perforations seems unrealistically low - maybe someone can explain this.

- Discomfort from the prep or procedure depend on the individual, and I don't think one can usefully generalize. I've had 4 colonoscopies, the first two with sedation and the last two without. I had 3 polyps removed the first time, none during the second, 2 polyps removed during the third, and none during the fourth. The advantages of no sedation are that I don't feel groggy afterward, and I can drive myself to and from. The procedures without sedation felt no worse than a bad case of gas (not surprisingly!). I watched the polyp removal during the third colonoscopy and didn't feel anything above the ambient gas pain. But some people might find the procedure very painful, or might get queasy watching. Everyone's different. And if you start without sedation and decide you want to stop in the middle, they might abandon the procedure and require you to come back again (in which case insurance is unlikely to pick up the second try). If you have one of these done with sedation, you might find it interesting to look at the itemized insurance docs and see how much they charged for the sedation (often done by an outfit independent from the GI practice). As for prep, the miralax with Gatorade is much better than the old stuff (which is damning with faint praise).

[0] https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2208375 [1] https://www.uspreventiveservicestaskforce.org/uspstf/recomme...

Re: Are colonoscopies worth it?

#250
post #44

In Denmark, when you turn 50 you start sending in a stool sample every other year. If it works, I think I like that model better.

My mother in law had a negative stool sample and died of colon cancer 9 months later.

And colonoscopies miss 60% of the precancerous polyps. There's no such thing as a guarantee in healthcare.

> The skill of a doctor doing a colonoscopy is often measured by their adenoma detection rate — how often they find a precancerous polyp. American doctors find them 40% of the time.

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