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Show HN: OpenSign – Open source alternative to DocuSign

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Re: Show HN: OpenSign – Open source alternative to DocuSign

#91

Post by hatsix »

jcoder wrote: post #90
gnarlouse wrote: post #89

How does something like this avoid IP theft/infringement cases? By all accounts it’s functionally the same thing as DocuSign? I ask because I am genuinely curious and hoping to learn a bit about IP law.

What kind of issue do you have in mind? By all accounts, the functionality or OpenOffice, LibreOffice, and Google’s suite are the same as Microsoft Office. There’s no theft unless they _actually stole intellectual property_

The commenter is confused, they mean infringing, not theft.

Theft is theft, no reason to get IP law involved.

Infringement can happen without intent. I don't know who would be liable, the open source company with little revenue, or the customers who are just using the software.

Re: Show HN: OpenSign – Open source alternative to DocuSign

#92

Post by alexopensource »

thathndude wrote: post #86
yodon wrote: post #2

My understanding (possibly incorrect) is that competing with DocuSign is hard because of the need to follow obscure state and National laws (many of which are defined by case law rather than published law) in order for the signatures to be legally binding. Is that the case? And if so, is there evidence OpenSign has done this kind of SME research to make sure the electronic signatures are legally binding, or is this m…

Lawyer here. Not legal advice. Really not that much by way of law to consider. If everyone agrees that an E-signature is good, then, generally speaking, an e-signature is good. I’d suggest it’s more on the people actually drafting the documents being signed than the software layer facilitating.

True. Even if one party from the signers dont trust e-sign, it wont work. But the number of people thinking an E-signature is good is only increasing day by day.

Re: Show HN: OpenSign – Open source alternative to DocuSign

#93

Post by jacurtis »

Projectiboga wrote: post #76
kemitchell wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't researched the law here in a while, but my general impression the last time I did was that there isn't much in the way of legal requirements for signing things digitally beyond the federal ESIGN Act, general principles of state contract law, and the smattering of very particular kinds of transactions that require processes like notarization or recording. For everyday deals between the vast majority of peopl…

Supreme Court said you can agree to things online awhile ago.

Nothing in the American legal system is that straightforward and simple, even less so among our Supreme Court. Things got even more confusing now that this year the Supreme Court has set a new precedent that they can now overturn their own rulings from decades earlier.

While I think that’s generally true that online signatures are acceptable in most circumstances, I’d be careful to blindly believe it as a blanket statement.

Re: Show HN: OpenSign – Open source alternative to DocuSign

#94

Post by 2Gkashmiri »

alexopensource wrote: post #37
p_l wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

European Union (and some states connecting with the same infrastructure, like Switzerland), have standardized formats as well as defined CAs that provide certificates for "qualified" signatures, which have the same legal weight as if you had a printed document with physical signature. DocuSign supports those mainly through some interop connections where, for example, a qualified signature vendor provides an API that…

You are right, that is precisely the route we will also have to take for certain regions. For example in India, there are only 3 entities that are authorized by the government to enable Aadhaar based e-signature. We will have to integrate with any of those in order to be compliant. We have already started working in this direction.

More than aadhar enabled signatures, India has pfx based digital signature system in place which is legally acceptable as good as a physical hand signature.

Re: Show HN: OpenSign – Open source alternative to DocuSign

#95

Post by vitus »

jacurtis wrote: post #93
Projectiboga wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Supreme Court said you can agree to things online awhile ago.

Nothing in the American legal system is that straightforward and simple, even less so among our Supreme Court. Things got even more confusing now that this year the Supreme Court has set a new precedent that they can now overturn their own rulings from decades earlier. While I think that’s generally true that online signatures are acceptable in most circumstances, I’d be careful to blindly believe it as a blanket sta…

> this year the Supreme Court has set a new precedent that they can now overturn their own rulings from decades earlier

What happened this year specifically?

Dobbs was in June 2022, but that isn't even close to the first time that the Supreme Court overturned precedent from 50+ years prior -- Brown v Board largely overturned Plessy v Ferguson ("separate but equal") from nearly 60 years prior.

And, we've had plenty of Supreme Court precedents overruled since the 19th century. According to Congress: https://constitution.congress.gov/resources/decisions-overru...

(Most of those never rose to the level of landmark decisions, but Plessy certainly did.)

Re: Show HN: OpenSign – Open source alternative to DocuSign

#97

Post by menzoic »

alexopensource wrote: post #92
thathndude wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lawyer here. Not legal advice. Really not that much by way of law to consider. If everyone agrees that an E-signature is good, then, generally speaking, an e-signature is good. I’d suggest it’s more on the people actually drafting the documents being signed than the software layer facilitating.

True. Even if one party from the signers dont trust e-sign, it wont work. But the number of people thinking an E-signature is good is only increasing day by day.

I think by everyone they meant everyone involved in the contract being signed

Re: Show HN: OpenSign – Open source alternative to DocuSign

#98

Post by alexopensource »

rubberband wrote: post #85
yodon wrote: post #2

My understanding (possibly incorrect) is that competing with DocuSign is hard because of the need to follow obscure state and National laws (many of which are defined by case law rather than published law) in order for the signatures to be legally binding. Is that the case? And if so, is there evidence OpenSign has done this kind of SME research to make sure the electronic signatures are legally binding, or is this m…

Your overall understanding is correct. People pay DocuSign to "think" of everything for them (which is not at all bad, it just comes at a cost). Depending on the space, you have to deal with crazy laws that no one in their right mind would know about (nor think to even consider). Essentially, "no one ever got fired for signing with DocuSign" (play on IBM). I'm late to the party here, but if the authors want real worl…

You are right. But there are many Individuals/companies who cannot benefit from DocuSign's trust because of the price tag. We want to provide them the free/ open source option and during the process build a brand that is equally trusted if not more than DocuSign.

Re: Show HN: OpenSign – Open source alternative to DocuSign

#99

Post by ildon »

thathndude wrote: post #86
yodon wrote: post #2

My understanding (possibly incorrect) is that competing with DocuSign is hard because of the need to follow obscure state and National laws (many of which are defined by case law rather than published law) in order for the signatures to be legally binding. Is that the case? And if so, is there evidence OpenSign has done this kind of SME research to make sure the electronic signatures are legally binding, or is this m…

Lawyer here. Not legal advice. Really not that much by way of law to consider. If everyone agrees that an E-signature is good, then, generally speaking, an e-signature is good. I’d suggest it’s more on the people actually drafting the documents being signed than the software layer facilitating.

Lawyer here as well, but from Europe. Here the same is true, unless the government is involved.

Documents from/to any agency, including anything that has any tax relevance, - generally speaking (there are many caveats) - shall be signed with services compliant with the e-signature standards provided by Regulation 2014/910/EU (in short: PADES, CADES, XADES).

Out of curiosity: is there a similar requirement in terms of e-signature in the US when documents need to be sent to some agency, such as the IRS?

Re: Show HN: OpenSign – Open source alternative to DocuSign

#100

Post by nonrandomstring »

alexopensource wrote: post #28
baz00 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate what you're doing but we buy DocuSign so the problem is far far away from us. This turns it into a problem we have to manage ourselves or a problem of finding a vendor stable enough to host your stuff that will make it not our problem long enough for the longest contract retention to expire. Which is difficult.

That is a great input, we need to put efforts into ensuring that we are seen as a long term player, in-fact we envision to be one, assuming some contracts might be really long term. I hope a day comes when you trust us enough :)

Gaining trust is one thing, I wish you the very best of luck with that.

Not losing it is another.

The people to preserve trust with are all potential signatories (ie. the public), not the initiating counterparties. Because there are many more of them.

Of course this reputation problem is one you'll share with banks, PayPal and every other "official" type entity that phishers want to jump on.

Now most "Docusign" communications go straight to my spam folder or /dev/null if arriving by email and not from (forwarded) a whitelisted business I already have a relation with. Those that come directly from Docusign (as sender even if DKIM passes) are ignored unless I think there's a reason to be contacted.

Docusign is one of the juiciest spoofing targets for phishing attacks because people act rashly to what they think is something requiring a signature. They also have no timeout on repeat sends, relentlessly spamming users to sign something, which makes them look exactly like, well.... phish-spammers.

Try not to make these same mistakes as Docusign.

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