Show HN: OpenSign – Open source alternative to DocuSign • Hacker News Board

Re: Show HN: OpenSign – Open source alternative to DocuSign

#31

Post by figassis » Sat, Oct 28, 2023, 10:21 PM UTC

yodon wrote: post #2

My understanding (possibly incorrect) is that competing with DocuSign is hard because of the need to follow obscure state and National laws (many of which are defined by case law rather than published law) in order for the signatures to be legally binding. Is that the case? And if so, is there evidence OpenSign has done this kind of SME research to make sure the electronic signatures are legally binding, or is this m…

Wouldn’t it be amazing, since e signatures have been around for ages, that governments just published the requirements for legally binding digital signatures rather than ask each maker to go talk to them and get some obscure license or blessing?

Re: Show HN: OpenSign – Open source alternative to DocuSign

#32

Post by alexopensource » Sat, Oct 28, 2023, 10:23 PM UTC

baz00 wrote: post #27

yborg wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure these problems were also difficult for DocuSign in the beginning.

Not really. They actually ran mock trials with legal professionals as test cases. That was an instant win for anyone wanting assurance of admissibility. No open source startup is going to win there because it's about entities and process, supported by technology not technology on its own. The technology is absolutely worthless without the framework and legal entities surrounding it. It's a unique position no one real…

They began when Digital signatures were not understood well even by legal professionals. Somewhere fear might have came in picture. Today, its easier to digest the fact that digital signatures are just cryptographic functions that guarantee the authenticity and integrity of documents and various actions on those docs. Plus the legal framework around it is better defined now. I am confident that we will be able to change the perception and make this the de-facto digital signing solution. The movement has just began, there is a long way ahead.

Re: Show HN: OpenSign – Open source alternative to DocuSign

#33

Post by benatkin » Sat, Oct 28, 2023, 10:31 PM UTC

alexopensource wrote: post #20

candiddevmike wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AFAIK DocuSign acts as a trusted third party and protects/prove chain of custody. Think of them like a digital notary public.

Our understanding is that DocuSign does not have any legal authority, they prove the chain of custody/modifications using digital traces which our solution can also do, arguably in a more open way.

Yes, making a mill for supposedly trusted third parties, over having an actual trusted third party, is a more open way.

Edit: I suppose in all except the free self hosted one, OpenSign would be the trusted third party, which I guess is more plausible. Unless the paid customers are given something close to root to administrate them. Still, a trusted third party is generally based on recognition. Even if I really dislike a company I eventually acknowledge they're trusted if it lasts long enough, like with ID.me. I didn't use ID.me until it was required for logging into the IRS and now I grudgingly admit that I think it's an extra security check on logging in. So until you're big like DocuSign I wouldn't view you in quite the same way as a trusted third party.

That does bring a question, are your paid customers prevented from going under the hood in such a way that they would also have to be trusted at such a level along with OpenSign?

--

This to say I'm open to using OpenSign, because there are plenty of uses where I would be open to using something that doesn't have this "trusted third party at the level of DocuSign" feature. The "digital notary public" analogy is apt. I sometimes sign documents with a notary, and other times without.

Re: Show HN: OpenSign – Open source alternative to DocuSign

#34

Post by wizzwizz4 » Sat, Oct 28, 2023, 10:32 PM UTC

latchkey wrote: post #3

It is interesting to me how they (tm) on OpenSign, but don't do it in all their references to their competitors...

That's because they're staking a claim to a trademark. They're not staking a claim to the trademarks of their competitors.

Re: Show HN: OpenSign – Open source alternative to DocuSign

#35

Post by ncallaway » Sat, Oct 28, 2023, 10:39 PM UTC

alexopensource wrote: post #20

candiddevmike wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AFAIK DocuSign acts as a trusted third party and protects/prove chain of custody. Think of them like a digital notary public.

Our understanding is that DocuSign does not have any legal authority, they prove the chain of custody/modifications using digital traces which our solution can also do, arguably in a more open way.

One think that I think they provide (as opposed to the self hosted version) is just the fact of being a relatively neutral third party.

If there’s a dispute over the veracity of a signature, it’s probably helpful to have a third party say “according to our server logs and software stack, this was signed by johndoe@example.com at 12:41pm on August 3rd, from the IP address XX.XXX.XXX.XX, and they authenticated with their email and password”. If I’m self-hosting, it’s marginally less convincing when I’m before a court if I say *my* software stack says that, since I have more direct control over it.

So, I agree DocuSign doesn’t have a special status, other than being a relatively neutral third party to that dispute. But if a signature’s validity is being questioned, that third party status is probably somewhat helpful.

Re: Show HN: OpenSign – Open source alternative to DocuSign

#36

Post by amolshejole » Sat, Oct 28, 2023, 10:39 PM UTC

figassis wrote: post #31

yodon wrote: post #2

My understanding (possibly incorrect) is that competing with DocuSign is hard because of the need to follow obscure state and National laws (many of which are defined by case law rather than published law) in order for the signatures to be legally binding. Is that the case? And if so, is there evidence OpenSign has done this kind of SME research to make sure the electronic signatures are legally binding, or is this m…

Wouldn’t it be amazing, since e signatures have been around for ages, that governments just published the requirements for legally binding digital signatures rather than ask each maker to go talk to them and get some obscure license or blessing?

Yeh, its already happening in a lot of regions across the world. We see a future that will have more open standards, it is precisely the reason we are working on this solution now.

Re: Show HN: OpenSign – Open source alternative to DocuSign

#37

Post by alexopensource » Sat, Oct 28, 2023, 10:42 PM UTC

p_l wrote: post #29

jjeaff wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there really any laws requiring special types of signatures? Because I've never had a legal doc sent to me that they weren't fine with just stamping my signature on the line or even printing it out, signing it, and scanning it back in.

European Union (and some states connecting with the same infrastructure, like Switzerland), have standardized formats as well as defined CAs that provide certificates for "qualified" signatures, which have the same legal weight as if you had a printed document with physical signature. DocuSign supports those mainly through some interop connections where, for example, a qualified signature vendor provides an API that…

You are right, that is precisely the route we will also have to take for certain regions. For example in India, there are only 3 entities that are authorized by the government to enable Aadhaar based e-signature. We will have to integrate with any of those in order to be compliant. We have already started working in this direction.

Re: Show HN: OpenSign – Open source alternative to DocuSign

#38

Post by josephcsible » Sat, Oct 28, 2023, 10:42 PM UTC

alexopensource wrote: post #30

szundi wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And soon after suddenly the Pricing page appears, after 3 months of disappointment convenient features turn paying ones. In some more years it is just as expensive as Docusign. Eh sorry, I’m just sad about Rocket Chat.

The self hosted version will always be free :)

Your CONTRIBUTING.md file says "By contributing, you agree that your contributions will be licensed under its MIT License." Since OpenSign is AGPLv3, why don't you allow contributions under the same license, if the self hosted version will always be free? I'm worried that the purpose of that might be to let you make it proprietary later.

Re: Show HN: OpenSign – Open source alternative to DocuSign

#39

Post by ncallaway » Sat, Oct 28, 2023, 10:42 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #21

alexopensource wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our understanding is that DocuSign does not have any legal authority, they prove the chain of custody/modifications using digital traces which our solution can also do, arguably in a more open way.

Electronic signatures legally recognized in the United States are provided for in the Electronic Signatures in Global and National Commerce Act (“ESIGN”) and state and territory versions of the Uniform Electronic Transactions Act (“UETA”). These are the regulations you’ll want to adhere to in order to provide parity with digital signature authority of traditional commercial providers (in the US at least). Great work…

UETA has been substantially adopted by 49 states. The state of New York has their own statute.

So, if you look at e-sign, UETA, and NY’s Electronic Signatures and Records Act, then you have fairly comprehensive coverage across the US.

Also not an attorney, and this is also definitely not definitive legal advice!

Re: Show HN: OpenSign – Open source alternative to DocuSign

#40

Post by alexopensource » Sat, Oct 28, 2023, 10:47 PM UTC

benatkin wrote: post #33

alexopensource wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our understanding is that DocuSign does not have any legal authority, they prove the chain of custody/modifications using digital traces which our solution can also do, arguably in a more open way.

Yes, making a mill for supposedly trusted third parties, over having an actual trusted third party, is a more open way. Edit: I suppose in all except the free self hosted one, OpenSign would be the trusted third party, which I guess is more plausible. Unless the paid customers are given something close to root to administrate them. Still, a trusted third party is generally based on recognition. Even if I really disli…

Great insights. The hosted version functions in a more or less same way as DocuSign with an added advantage of knowing what the code is doing under the hood. We dont intend to provide root/admin privileges as its going to be a multi-tenant system at the end of the day.