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The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

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Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#451

Post by petertodd »

Balgair wrote: post #447
petertodd wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's estimated that Hamas has between 30,000 and 40,000 soldiers(1), which is about 6% to 8% of Gaza's entire adult male population. There's no way of getting around it: if Israel finishes the job of eradicating Hamas, a large percentage of the Gazan population will be killed or captured, purely because so many of them are actively involved in Hamas. Anyway, if Gazan citizens learn the lessons of their mistakes, they…

Then that means we're looking at ~150,000 to 200,000 Israeli casualties. Roughly a fourth of all their trained personnel and a seventh of all the males available for conscription. Nearly all of Gaza is built up urban centers and Hamas has had a decade plus of preparation time for this event. The urban fighting for the attackers is going to be some of the worst since Leningrad. It's going to take years to fully clean…

> Then that means we're looking at ~150,000 to 200,000 Israeli casualties.

There is zero reason to think the IDF is going to take that many casualties. They are much better equipped than Hamas, and if needed, they can simply besiege areas to force Hamas to either leave or starve.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#452

Post by junofan »

C6JEsQeQa5fCjE wrote: post #450
p3rls wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meanwhile Japan was killing that amount of Chinese civilians a week through only sheer willpower -- very kawaii. How many Chinese victims and American servicemen (mostly conscripts) were you willing to sacrifice on this altar of stupidity/hindsight? Not to even mention the fact MORE JAPANESE themselves would have died without the bombs being dropped and I really begin to question not just the morals of the OP but you…

Japan has committed many atrocities and had no moral high ground, nor would I have suggested so. I am not debating how many conscripts to sacrifice and so on, and you are free to question my intelligence however much you wish. I reject your framing of my answer to the OP and engaging with false implications and things I have not claimed. More to the point, the bomb(s) could have been dropped on military targets away…

Yeah it was to show Stalin we’d have absolutely no qualms about dropping it on Moscow.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#453

Post by hbt »

lordofgibbons wrote: post #6

Hopefully news crews brought their satellite broadcasting equipment. It's important for the world not be blocked off from seeing what's going on regardless of which side you support.

Israel is not allowing foreign / independent journalists in Gaza.

From the foreign press: https://www.ifj.org/media-centre/news/detail/category/middle...

If you are wondering why, here are the absurd reasons used:

- lack of electricity / internet. No one heard of generators and starlink satellites?

- Israel wants to prevent fake news and propaganda. This backfires as when a hospital gets bombed, we can't know who did it since there are no independent journalists on the ground. It sure doesn't help when your high officials brag about it on twitter.

"Initial posts on X sent by Hananya Naftali, a digital aide to Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, aroused suspicion. “Israeli Air Force struck a Hamas terrorist base inside a hospital in Gaza,” he wrote, but the post was almost immediately deleted."

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/18/what-is-israels-na...

- Israel cannot guarantee the safety of journalists. https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/gaza-journalists-safety-israel... Looks pretty bad when an IDF soldier shoots a journalist https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/5/11/shireen-abu-akleh-i... Of course, guaranteeing journalists safety doesn't seem to be an issue in conflicts like Ukraine.

Israel is afraid of the international scrutiny and condemnation that would follow if the world saw the true extent of the suffering and devastation in Gaza

So, better hide it.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#454

Post by dlubarov »

hackerlight wrote: post #405
dlubarov wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would you suggest Israel do instead, given the ongoing threat Hamas poses?

Build an impenetrable DMZ, keep improving missile defence systems, continue forming alliances with neighboring Arab states, stop settlement expansion in West bank, crack down on settler violence, expel right-wing zealots from positions of power, iterate for 20-60 years, let the next generation figure it out. Get hostages out as a condition of a ceasefire agreement. Things were looking optimistic during the Oslo talks…

Just from a military perspective, I'm not sure defense-only is a viable long-term strategy. Iron Dome's interceptors cost something like 50x more than Hamas' simple rockets, so it ends up being a cheap way for Iran to deplete their enemies' military budgets.

Even ignoring cost, a few percent of rockets get through, and the technological gap is narrowing thanks to Iran. I think the damage could drastically increase as Hamas starts using faster rockets and guidance systems.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#455

Post by tzs »

kingofpandora wrote: post #406
invalidname wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't count on anything coming from the circle of Netanyahu. He is the absolute worse. But Israeli mainstream press is generally better sourced. Notice that Israel also used phone tracking to check that civilian population moved away from the target. No county that ran a campaign of this type in the past used such an approach to avoid civilian casualties. I think the bombings are very problematic. But from curre…

> I wouldn't count on anything coming from the circle of Netanyahu. It's not about whether I trust them or not (I don't!). It's that everyone is following the same playbook. Israel can do whatever it wants and blame Palestinians with impunity. Every teenager shot on the street is a militant. Every house that is flattened was used by terrorists. Every journalist that was dies while working was actually killed by the P…

>> Notice that Israel also used phone tracking to check that civilian population moved away from the target. No county that ran a campaign of this type in the past used such an approach to avoid civilian casualties.

> What about all the people who can't charge their phones because Israel only allowed 4 hours of electricity per day before the most recent campaign? Or whose phones were lost when their homes were destroyed?

If they were trying to answer the question "how many people are in this area?" it could make a big difference, but to answer the question "what fraction of people who were here have recently left this area?" sampling just people with powered on phones just be enough to figure it out, assuming Israel has decent statisticians to analyze the data.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#456

Post by nec4b »

jacquesm wrote: post #256
enterprise_cog wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, so if only they went back to a total lockdown of Gaza and treated it like a more maximum security prison, then this wouldn’t have happened? What if they didn’t treat it like a prison, or Palestinians like subhuman prisoners? Do you think that maybe then they wouldn’t want to go on raids and kill people? That those 1400 soldiers and civilians would still be alive?

The Israeli viewpoint in some circles is that the number would then be higher. And they may well be right, but that doesn't mean that the situation can continue the way it has been going for the last 20 years. The fanatics on both sides will have to be brought to heel.

What would you do if you were the leader of Israel? They have pulled out of Gaza in 2005. Hamas goal is destruction of Israel, I doesn't want any peace talks.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#457

Post by HDThoreaun »

culi wrote: post #65
bhouston wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After the horrendous Hamas attacks of October 7 a portion of the Israeli public sort of lost it and have outright called for retribution. I worry that this indiscriminate bombing campaign combined with a near complete blockade of food, electricity, water of the last two weeks is reflective of that. Now with a lack of communication, I worry about Palestinians. You can never be sure what will happen, but the ingredient…

> have outright called for retribution When Israel invaded Gaza in 2014 they killed 2,310 people. 70% were civilians. In return they lost only 67 soldiers. They also destroyed 7-10k homes and damaged 87k other homes. Between 2005-2008, 1,754 Palestinians and 117 Israelis have lost their lives due to the ongoing occupation. Between 2008-2023 2,329 more Palestinians and 308 more Israeli people lost their lives. The vas…

I don't see the logic in blaming Israel for having a more competent military. Both sides are trying to kill people on the other side, palestine and Hamas are just incompetent and under resourced.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#458

Post by HDThoreaun »

snird wrote: post #435
hypefi wrote: post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it is not okay for Israel to steal land, oppress and kill people with impunity

[flagged]

Israel has majorly stepped up settlements and general Palestinian antagonization in the last year. Ben Gvir especially has been doing everything he can to spit on the west bank.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#459

Post by HDThoreaun »

FireBeyond wrote: post #122
petertodd wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's estimated that Hamas has between 30,000 and 40,000 soldiers(1), which is about 6% to 8% of Gaza's entire adult male population. There's no way of getting around it: if Israel finishes the job of eradicating Hamas, a large percentage of the Gazan population will be killed or captured, purely because so many of them are actively involved in Hamas. Anyway, if Gazan citizens learn the lessons of their mistakes, they…

> Anyway, if Gazan citizens learn the lessons of their mistakes, they still have a future. Mistakes? To be clear, before I continue further: Hamas is a terrorist organization. Hamas also has a lot of support within Palestine. Now then, scenario 1) how, realistically, do you propose that the regular non-Hamas supporting Palestinian works to eradicate Hamas? Hamas have arms. (Let's not also forget how hard right Israel…

There's a difference between what I would want to do and what I should do. Would I want to fight back against my oppressors? Obviously. But here's the reality, Israel is not going anywhere. The current borders are not going anywhere. Objectively, the Palestinians best option is doing everything they can to reach a peace agreement that kicks all the settlers out of the west bank and gives them actual sovereignty. It's not easy to look past the wrongs they've experienced, but it is clearly what's best for them and especially their children. Continuing to fight will eventually lead to an actual genocide or trail of tears situation when Israel decides they've had enough of living in fear of terrorism, international relations be damned.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#460

Post by HDThoreaun »

jacquesm wrote: post #219
ipaddr wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Hamas is as big as it is because there are a lot of people in Gaza who think that Hamas is their best chance of changing the situation. If it is as bad as it seems to be to me as an outsider then you have to understand that for someone with absolutely no future and nothing to lose living in what has been termed the worlds largest prison that a large fraction will end up being recruited. This is a reflection of the de…

> there are a lot of people in Gaza who think that Hamas is their best chance of changing the situation.

Those people are wrong. Hamas does not have a chance of accomplishing anything other than slaughter of gazans. They have no chance against israel, unless of course improving palestinians life isn't the goal but rather terrorizing israelis.

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