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New Study Says Maybe Helicopter Parenting Is Making Kids Depressed

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Re: New Study Says Maybe Helicopter Parenting Is Making Kids Depressed

#141

Post by userinanother »

mattmaroon wrote: post #85
david-gpu wrote: post #38

The title blames "helicopter parenting" while the actual study blames the lack of independent mobility: > Considerable research, mostly in Europe, has focused on children’s independent mobility (CIM), defined as children’s freedom to travel in their neighborhood or city without adult accompaniment Isn't that lack of independent mobility largely caused by car-centric urban planning? Children and teens can't safely roa…

America was no less a car culture in the 80’s and yet we had much more mobility. I was walking to school by myself as a six year old, and everyone else did. Now your parents did. It’s only the perception of risk that changed.

The actual risk has changed. The risk vector is different though. Where before the risk was from a predator, now the risk is from a “Karen” calling CPS on you as well as the social costs of other people judging you as a bad parent.

Re: New Study Says Maybe Helicopter Parenting Is Making Kids Depressed

#142

Post by david-gpu »

mcpackieh wrote: post #139
david-gpu wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Suburban sprawl has mang negative effects but it can sometimes produce walkable areas and quiet residential roads that it's safe to play on too The population density in North American suburbs is too low to allow for children to comfortably walk or bike to their friend's homes, or to third places. They can't even walk to school, for goodness' sake. More importantly, most people unsurprisingly live in the most dense…

> The population density in North American suburbs is too low to allow for children to comfortably walk or bike to their friend's homes, or to third places. That's just your point of view, a point of view which results in helicopter parenting. When I was a kid I used to ride my bike 5 miles down country lanes into the nearby suburbs to play with my friends. The only rule was that I had to be back by dinner. This sort…

> That's just your point of view, a point of view which results in helicopter parenting

> They don't use reddit/etc so they aren't pumped full of hyperbolic propaganda about how dangerous walking in America is, and consequently, they're able to enjoy it just fine

Here's some of the data and context that informs my opinion.

I'm used to walking about 30-35Km a week in suburban Toronto. Close calls with cars happen on a weekly basis. I wear hi-viz clothing, look both ways, all that jazz.

You know who doesn't look both ways? Cars making right turns. Pedestrian safety statistics published every year in my area very much support this viewpoint [0].

As for the risk involved, if again you look at actual statistics you will find that pedestrian deaths have been increasing sharply in North America with the advent of ever larger vehicles like lifted pickup trucks and SUV [1]. This is happening in spite of far fewer people choosing to walk these days [2].

As for the volume of car traffic, it's worse than ever in my area [3].

So, with actual data at hand, it does look like walking is rather more dangerous than it used to be. You can look up cycling statistics if you feel like. Hint: they are much worse.

[0] https://www.york.ca/transportation/traffic/traffic-safety-pr...

[1] https://www.iihs.org/topics/fatality-statistics/detail/pedes...

[2] https://data.bikeleague.org/show-your-data/national-data/rat...

[3] https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/toronto-most-congeste...

Re: New Study Says Maybe Helicopter Parenting Is Making Kids Depressed

#143

Post by gumballindie »

thargor90 wrote: post #136
gumballindie wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Isn't that lack of independent mobility largely caused by car-centric urban planning? Thats not much if an issue in Europe. Here the problem is the risk of violence and crime. Particularity in western europe, walking alone at night is risky even as an adult. For kids it would be equally risky during the day.

Maybe I'm biased, but in my opinion crime risk is higher in the US, where you have "no-go-zones" than ok most parts of Western Europe, where this concept does not really exist.

> where this concept does not really exist.

This concept absolutely exists. First time I witnessed it was in Denmark and Sweden with plenty of stories from locals that were beaten or threatened by local gangs for simply entering their "area" and the police did nothing. Then there are stories I heard from Paris, and Berlin.

However, overall, all areas except maybe small towns and villages pose sufficient risk for children.

Edit: I dont think it’s because of “refugees” as someone else wrote, I think it’s a policing issue.

Re: New Study Says Maybe Helicopter Parenting Is Making Kids Depressed

#144

Post by david-gpu »

mattmaroon wrote: post #85
david-gpu wrote: post #38

The title blames "helicopter parenting" while the actual study blames the lack of independent mobility: > Considerable research, mostly in Europe, has focused on children’s independent mobility (CIM), defined as children’s freedom to travel in their neighborhood or city without adult accompaniment Isn't that lack of independent mobility largely caused by car-centric urban planning? Children and teens can't safely roa…

America was no less a car culture in the 80’s and yet we had much more mobility. I was walking to school by myself as a six year old, and everyone else did. Now your parents did. It’s only the perception of risk that changed.

> It’s only the perception of risk that changed.

The more people travel by car, the worse the experience is for everybody else.

For example, as more people drive their kids to school, fewer people become comfortable letting their own kids walk because the traffic around the school is so much worse. The actual danger, not just the perception of it, has increased. And besides the increased danger, there is also noise, peer pressure, etc.

Without better policies the situation will not improve.

Re: New Study Says Maybe Helicopter Parenting Is Making Kids Depressed

#145

Post by mcpackieh »

david-gpu wrote: post #142
mcpackieh wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The population density in North American suburbs is too low to allow for children to comfortably walk or bike to their friend's homes, or to third places. That's just your point of view, a point of view which results in helicopter parenting. When I was a kid I used to ride my bike 5 miles down country lanes into the nearby suburbs to play with my friends. The only rule was that I had to be back by dinner. This sort…

> That's just your point of view, a point of view which results in helicopter parenting > They don't use reddit/etc so they aren't pumped full of hyperbolic propaganda about how dangerous walking in America is, and consequently, they're able to enjoy it just fine Here's some of the data and context that informs my opinion. I'm used to walking about 30-35Km a week in suburban Toronto. Close calls with cars happen on a…

Most pedestrian result from pedestrians doing stupid things, like walking in the middle of the road at night wearing black while drunk. 77% of pedestrian deaths occur at night: https://www.vox.com/23784549/pedestrian-deaths-traffic-safet...

60% of pedestrian deaths occur on high-capacity urban roads: https://www.cdc.gov/transportationsafety/pedestrian_safety/i...

The most dangerous roads are multilane roads e.g. highways: "among 60 roads that had the most pedestrian deaths during 2001-2016, all were roads with adjacent commercial retail space, nearly all were multilane roads" https://www.cdc.gov/transportationsafety/pedestrian_safety/i...

30% of pedestrian deaths involve a drunk pedestrian: "About one out of three (30%) involved a pedestrian with a BAC of at least 0.08 g/dL.7" https://www.cdc.gov/transportationsafety/pedestrian_safety/i...

Men account for 70% of pedestrian deaths, because men are more inclined to have a severe disregard for their own safety: https://www.iihs.org/topics/fatality-statistics/detail/males...

If you simply choose to follow basic common sense, then these population-level statistics don't represent the actual risk to yourself. You're getting yourself freaked out by numbers that don't actually apply to you (or shouldn't if you have any sense.)

Re: New Study Says Maybe Helicopter Parenting Is Making Kids Depressed

#146

Post by Kye »

mcpackieh wrote: post #139
david-gpu wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Suburban sprawl has mang negative effects but it can sometimes produce walkable areas and quiet residential roads that it's safe to play on too The population density in North American suburbs is too low to allow for children to comfortably walk or bike to their friend's homes, or to third places. They can't even walk to school, for goodness' sake. More importantly, most people unsurprisingly live in the most dense…

> The population density in North American suburbs is too low to allow for children to comfortably walk or bike to their friend's homes, or to third places. That's just your point of view, a point of view which results in helicopter parenting. When I was a kid I used to ride my bike 5 miles down country lanes into the nearby suburbs to play with my friends. The only rule was that I had to be back by dinner. This sort…

The local cycling advocacy group maintains a map of safe, dangerous, and risky routes based on their actual experience: https://usg.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=...

See all that red? That's what it's like for most people in the US, minus all the sidewalks. You might be lucky enough to live in a place like I do where there's enough green and orange and walkable shoulders to make walking and cycling viable if you live in the right neighborhood or close to a bus stop.

Also take special note of the situation on Prince Avenue. It has clearly marked, wide, dedicated bicycle lanes you can easily make out on a satellite view and it's still orange. People have died there, recently. You can at least get a bicycle across with the racks on buses. Most people don't have buses.

People still walk it and ride it. And people die often enough doing it to validate the concern.

Re: New Study Says Maybe Helicopter Parenting Is Making Kids Depressed

#147

Post by dgacmu »

cantSpellSober wrote: post #107
CalRobert wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it a signature of urban environments? I moved from the countryside to a city a few months ago and have already made more friends than I did in years in the country.

Interesting anecdote. It's been studied though https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urban_sprawl#Social

Urban sprawl is a feature of _suburban_ expansion at low density. It's exactly the opposite of a dense, connected urban environment. (1)

My kids spend a lot of time at the neighborhood park, as one example. It's within walking distance and we see a ton of families there. Density (with infrastructure like parks) creates opportunities for connection.

(1) from the Wikipedia article you cited, "Reid Ewing has shown that sprawl has typically been characterized as urban developments exhibiting at least one of the following characteristics: low-density or single-use development, strip development, scattered development, and/or leapfrog development (areas of development interspersed with vacant land)"

Re: New Study Says Maybe Helicopter Parenting Is Making Kids Depressed

#148

Post by chiefalchemist »

whstl wrote: post #128
chiefalchemist wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm commenting on the comment up one level from mine. They said they are for adversity but then said X and Y deaths are down. BuBut might that be from a lack of adversity? (Hint: I bet it is. It makes perfect sense.)

We're talking about the same comment. "GP" means grandparent, in this case jtrn . I'm referring to the link in their own post [1] The text in the linked article attributes the reason for having less deaths to safety standards, etc. In fact the same link mentions that people have been traveling more by car despite the reduction, not less. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38048241

fwiw, come to think of it, deaths is a false god metric. That is, accidents can increase but medical procedures can have improved to prevent deaths.

Nonetheless, in helicopter households moms and dads are certainly driving more.

p.s. We've both read plenty of studies based on bad data, bad procedures, bad analysis, etc. The topic comes up weekly on HN. One study does not a law make, nor is it grounds to dismiss the obvious.

Re: New Study Says Maybe Helicopter Parenting Is Making Kids Depressed

#149

Post by mcpackieh »

Kye wrote: post #146
mcpackieh wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The population density in North American suburbs is too low to allow for children to comfortably walk or bike to their friend's homes, or to third places. That's just your point of view, a point of view which results in helicopter parenting. When I was a kid I used to ride my bike 5 miles down country lanes into the nearby suburbs to play with my friends. The only rule was that I had to be back by dinner. This sort…

The local cycling advocacy group maintains a map of safe, dangerous, and risky routes based on their actual experience: https://usg.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=... See all that red? That's what it's like for most people in the US, minus all the sidewalks. You might be lucky enough to live in a place like I do where there's enough green and orange and walkable shoulders to make walking and cycling…

That link centers the map on Prince Ave in Athens-Clarke County. Look that road up, it's a 4 lane road. I would never bike on that road, of course it's dangerous. If you avoid roads like that, you avoid most of the risk. It's common sense but a substantial portion of adult male cyclists obstinately refuse to apply such common sense because they'd rather die as some sort of martyr for their right of way than stay alive.

In fact most of the roads on the map you just linked to are marked as green. If I zoomed out and the first red road I saw was Broad Street. That is four lane road as well. No surprise. Multi-lane roads are very dangerous for cyclists and pedestrians, so you should tell your children to avoid them. That's what I've always done, so I have much less to worry about than the crudest population-level statistics would suggest.

Re: New Study Says Maybe Helicopter Parenting Is Making Kids Depressed

#150

Post by jjav »

david-gpu wrote: post #38

The title blames "helicopter parenting" while the actual study blames the lack of independent mobility: > Considerable research, mostly in Europe, has focused on children’s independent mobility (CIM), defined as children’s freedom to travel in their neighborhood or city without adult accompaniment Isn't that lack of independent mobility largely caused by car-centric urban planning? Children and teens can't safely roa…

> places like that in Canada

Ottawa seems great with bike paths everywhere connecting parks and neighborhoods.

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