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'Not of faculty quality': How Penn mistreated Katalin Karikó

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Re: 'Not of faculty quality': How Penn mistreated Katalin Karikó

#291
post #3

This article makes me wonder how many groundbreaking discoveries are buried under academia's bureaucracy and ego battles.

But how would you solve this issue though? Once you decide that you will value and promote people who fit the characteristics of Kariko, a thousand impostors immediately pop up who will match all the outward appearances of that you wanted to promote.

You don't value and promote a single or even a handful of archetypes. You value and promote a healthy diversity of approaches. Not just diversity amongst individuals but also between institutions. If MIT, Harvard, Stanford all had meaningfully different research philosophies, it wouldn't be quite so obvious how to game the system.

If the NIH gave some grants like they already do, some grants that would target someone like Karikó, some grants that would target reproducibility experts, etc. (in addition to some that may be a combination of such criteria) it would be a much more complicated political game to try to be an ideal imposter. You'd still have some but I think there would be many more filtered out, and more true positives kept.

Re: 'Not of faculty quality': How Penn mistreated Katalin Karikó

#292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the university since they take a very hefty cut (50-100%! btw this doubles the "cost" of the grant, it doesn't lessen the amount the professor gets) Don't forget that this is actually money laundering. Our NIH grants had major strings attached, like "you may not buy non-instrumentation computers" (at least, that's what I was told, I did not actually get to read the grants). So the University helpfully launders the…

> Don't forget that this is actually money laundering. For anyone questioning this line, let's remember a few things - Graduate students (in this setting) are typically funded, so the cost of their credits (often higher than undergrads) are determined by the university and such costs are a major factor of what is taken out of the grant the professor gets their portion (sometimes after the uni's cut!). The rest then g…

>- Graduate students in year 3+ (median 5 years for PhD) are not taking courses and doing full time research and likely being a TA at the same time. (Tuition costs do not change)

Typically they will only take 1 credit after entering candidacy though, down from 9, so overall tuition drops significantly.

> It is better to buy shitty lab equipment because you don't have enough for good equipment and can't invest any excess

Sounds like you should have asked for a more appropriate amount of money in the grant.

> If you don't use the money in the allotted timeframe you're considered to have improperly managed the funding.

Grants can often be extended and funding can be supplemented.

> Students and professors "judge" works submitted to venues by other students and professors for no pay

Sure, but we are compensated by other academics reviewing our papers for no financial compensation.

> Venues take copyright ownership over works they deem valuable and put it behind a paywall

They take copyright over the submitted manuscript. I maintain copyright over preprints. Anyway, the point of writing the research is to distribute it, not to own copyright over it, so I don't see the problem. You can choose the venue, and not all venues take copyright over the submitted manuscript. If copyright is important, then choose one of those venues.

Re: 'Not of faculty quality': How Penn mistreated Katalin Karikó

#293
post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless the organization is fundamentally structured with difference incentives, I'm not sure it'll achieve a different outcome. It's a hard but necessary challenge to prioritize research, which requires that every research group advocate the utility of their work and be evaluated in comparison with others.

I agree, the funding model would have to be different. I think there may actually some schools that already do it, but you don’t hear about them much because the research-funded model ultimately drives prestige. A school that just provides a really great education is simply less likely to be famous.

Yes, there are many different purposes of a modern university. There are plenty of non-R1 universities that focus more on education. No model is "better", but it might be more or less appropriate for different students or professors depending on their goals.

Re: 'Not of faculty quality': How Penn mistreated Katalin Karikó

#294
post #4

So what are the repercussions for the admins who misjudged or mistreated her? If there aren't sufficient changes then maybe groups should move their funding out of Penn.

It was largely other biology professors, not admins. It's a bad look no doubt, and there are other issues with modern university admins - but this is a direct consequence of those in the field, not typical bureaucracy crap.

Re: 'Not of faculty quality': How Penn mistreated Katalin Karikó

#295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look into the difficulties faced by the University of Austin [1] (not the University of Texas at Austin). This is a project which explicitly seems to be pushing back against the current toxic academic environment, yet a major issue they are encountering seems to be degree accreditation. To get "recognized" these days, the American Association of University Professors (AAUP) [2] will need to agree that your school tea…

U of Austin is having difficulty because it's defined from the jump as a right-wing institution.

Do you think a university defined from the jump as a left-wing institution would face similar difficulties?

One of the founding tenets of U of Austin is noted as being declared that they would not factor race, gender, or class into admissions because they "stand(s) firmly against that sort of discrimination". I’m amused, but not surprised, that in the minds of some that’s a conservative idea.

Re: 'Not of faculty quality': How Penn mistreated Katalin Karikó

#296
post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm honestly interested in what defines them as "right wing". All I'm seeing is media describe them as "anti-woke" and "anti-cancel culture".

Cancel culture is just a term for "if you say something terrible, there may be consequences." Being opposed to consequences for saying or doing terrible things is, apparently, a key tenet of the American right. When someone uses the term "anti-woke," what they are signaling is an opposition to things like fairness, awareness of systemic racism and sexism, and the ability of LGBTQ folks to live openly without fear. As…

The Q.E.D. really seals the deal for me. I don’t know anyone outside of high school who still writes online like that. To be honest though, it’s a pretty good indicator, along with the immediate onslaught of *isms, that your perspectives are sufficiently crystallized that no amount of discussion here will change your views. This kind of energy does exceptionally well on reddit, are you familiar?

Re: 'Not of faculty quality': How Penn mistreated Katalin Karikó

#297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the medium term, on average, the market tends to kill-off sheer stupidity. It is kinda traumatic in the short-term to see how much stupidity is rewarded, of course. (And here, are VCs anything more than serial idiots?) But if you really want to persue a basically competent merit-based path, there's usually one available. You can make 2x in a crypto conjob, or 1x on a gamble that someone needs a plausible value-add…

A VC which is a serial idiot will eventually run out of money. One thing to remember is that not all VCs are the same and there probably are some which are very good at what they do. Another way of saying this is just because some VCs are not good at their job does not mean all VCs are not good at their job.

> A VC which is a serial idiot will eventually run out of money.

This is not really true as VCs are not the sources of the money they invest. VCs raise money from their backers and there really is a (virtually) infinite amount of money available to raise, even for a repeatedly unsuccessful VC firm.

As with the startups themselves, the key skill is raising, not earning the actual ROI.

Re: 'Not of faculty quality': How Penn mistreated Katalin Karikó

#298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To provide a helpful analogy: Suppose you want to get karma for a low-effort take on an engineering forum. If you say, for example, "academia is just like the mafia," the low-effort will be immediately recognized and down-voted. Alternatively, you can make an assertion that is outside of the scope of engineering. Like "this is actually money laundering." Engineers don't have the expertise to assess that, but they wil…

It's funny that you use "academia is like the mafia" as an example that we are supposed to find outrageous. The labor structure of academia has a number of similarities with how gangs operate: https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/impactofsocialsciences/2013/12/11/ho...

This article was quite sloppy and inaccurate.

First, it makes the common mistake of comparing a graduate student stipends are low, while failing to assign any value at all to tuition. Many Ph.D.s are supported by grants, and their tuition is covered and is not taxed. That doesn't mean the tuition has no value, nor that money isn't exchanged to pay for that tuition. Real money is used to pay for that, and it provides a number of benefits to the student including access to the campus and all associated resources (libraries, gyms, labs, events, technology, workspaces, etc.)

People working at McDonalds don't have access to those resources from their job, so it's unfair to not include that when calculating their total compensation. When you do, they come out a lot better than low level drug dealers, as this article tries to argue.

It goes on to argue how graduate students are precariously employed. Quite the opposite, Ph.D. students are usually funded for 3-4 years under a grant. At least in the US, I don't know of many other jobs with guaranteed 4 year contracts, especially entry level. Most places are at-will and you can be fired on the spot. Ph.D. students are regarded as students, and therefore often aren't fired when they make mistakes (even big ones), because it's expected that their role is to learn.

That's another thing, is that this article focuses primarily on how the Ph.D. student is shortchanged by not being paid (in dollars) as much as a low-level employee at a corporation, but it doesn't spend any time on how such employees have different expectations. Ask a Ph.D. student if they want more money, and they say "Hell yes!" tell them they have to wear a uniform and arrive at 7:00am to open the lab, and they're fired if they're late twice, and every second of their day will be scheduled and tracked, they will be suddenly less enthusiastic at the prospect of making a couple extra bucks.

Re: 'Not of faculty quality': How Penn mistreated Katalin Karikó

#299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they take a very hefty cut (50-100%! btw this doubles the "cost" of the grant, it doesn't lessen the amount the professor gets This leads to some very interesting conversations at universities. "Your department doesn't bring in many grants, so we can't grant your budget request." "But grants aren't revenue. They're money used to cover the expense of doing research." "Yes, but they bring in overhead." Then when the…

American universities are a fantastic scheme. I'm working on a project right now to see if I can bring this to high schools. They're a massive machine to move money from taxpayers into certain organizations very effectively. That's why you'll see that the loudest voices for student loan forgiveness go to these universities. Come on, you have a Divinities degree from Harvard? That's a fictional thing. Of course you're…

... Harvard Divinity is considered one of the best divinity schools in the world.

Re: 'Not of faculty quality': How Penn mistreated Katalin Karikó

#300

My wife was hired last year as a full time professor and leads her own lab. By far the largest pressure on new faculty is the ability to get money into her lab, and by extension the university since they take a very hefty cut (50-100%! btw this doubles the "cost" of the grant, it doesn't lessen the amount the professor gets). Getting approved for the money via the grant process means having published "interesting" re…

> The hiring process is setup basically to filter for folks who they think are the most likely to publish lots of papers ...

In Australia, it did seem to be that way up until maybe a year or so ago.

These days however there seems to be far greater emphasis on hiring people from er... "diverse" backgrounds, over everything else. Strongly preferred to be non-male too.

Don't even bother applying if your a Caucasian male, regardless of your qualifications, academic history / publishing record, etc.

Note - that's not just a random impression, that's what I've been told by friends working at major Aust Uni's when they want to vent.

And yeah, it's as bad as that sounds. :(

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