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The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

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Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#281

Post by catlover76 »

YZF wrote: post #250
jacquesm wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've noticed the same here in NL, so this isn't just limited to the USA. You're either for Israel or you're an anti-semite. The possibility that you question the validity of the way Israel deals with Palestinians (notably: the settlements, which are in my opinion an outrageous violation of human rights against the original inhabitants) while at the same time not having anything in particular against Jews is something…

I don't think this is true in general. Many people that support Israel are critical of Israeli policies in the west bank (including the US administration). I think there's a problem when you apply different standard to Jews vs. everyone else or are parroting some narrative that has anti-semitic aspects to it. For example, I would call people contesting the right of Israel to exist, despite many generations of Israeli…

I don't see how that poster is saying anything anti-semitic? His criticisms seem pretty practical and grounded in the reality of the situation.

Personally, I don't think any country has the "right" to exist. Neither the Israelis nor Palestinians have any moral right to a country, and I think that the notion that "nations", which are often ahistorical fabrications, have the right to self-determination is bullshit.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#282

Post by invalidname »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #201
solarpunk wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

excuse my naivete, but if they're giving two week notice about bombings, why even waste the ordinance?

As another person who doesn't understand what's going on, I'm seeing articles that indicate they are effectively trying to drive people out and force them to leave and move to other countries and not come back and trying to use low cost tactics like telling them to evacuate to limit actual cost as well as international pushback. And some people are saying "That's a big fat nope."

Historically in 1948 Palestinians left their home and due to ongoing wars were never able to come back. Effectively they lost their home. They're afraid this is happening again.

Honestly, I don't know if it is or if it isn't. But what can Israel do here?

Israel said the area they will target which puts its soldiers at risk. In the interest of avoiding civilian casualties. Israel already withdrew settlements from Gaza so the chances of this coming back is pretty slim.

It's a pretty terrible situation for the Palestinian people and it's 100% the fault of Hamas. Unfortunately, if Israel won't destroy the Hamas now this will happen again and it will be worse.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#283

Post by [deleted] »

culi wrote: post #205
bluish29 wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you mind doing the calculation of what the Palestinian casualties corresponds if they were happening in the US? or this does not serve your point?

Good point. But it's a little tricky considering the vast majority of Palestinians (~7 million) are refugees that have been displaced from their homeland. So are we talking about the half a million left in Gaza or the entire diaspora?

[deleted]

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#284

Post by YZF »

tachyons wrote: post #207
YZF wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

These are definitely valid criticisms against Hamas, But how does that even remotely justify Israel? How does armed gang storming your house and killing you is different than bombing? Will it be less painful death? You want to take the claims about rape and mutilation though there weren't any proofs given till date, but doubt the number of people killed on Gaza despite all the names are published? If your only soluti…

I'm not sure what you're suggesting. That Hamas can commit a raid into Israel and then stay in Gaza with impunity because Israel is not allowed to bomb Gaza? That makes no sense. What do you propose Israel do with this "terrorist" (why the double quotes?) organization?

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-forensic-t...

The word genocide is used way to often in this conflict. My dictionary says "the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.". There is no genocide.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#285

Post by YZF »

catlover76 wrote: post #281
YZF wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this is true in general. Many people that support Israel are critical of Israeli policies in the west bank (including the US administration). I think there's a problem when you apply different standard to Jews vs. everyone else or are parroting some narrative that has anti-semitic aspects to it. For example, I would call people contesting the right of Israel to exist, despite many generations of Israeli…

I don't see how that poster is saying anything anti-semitic? His criticisms seem pretty practical and grounded in the reality of the situation. Personally, I don't think any country has the "right" to exist. Neither the Israelis nor Palestinians have any moral right to a country, and I think that the notion that "nations", which are often ahistorical fabrications, have the right to self-determination is bullshit.

I didn't really say anything about the poster. I'm just trying to address the question and how Jews or Israelis likely look at this.

I agree with you "right to exist" is bullshit. A country exists or doesn't exist and it may also cease to exist if it can't remain a country. That's about it.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#286

Post by bhouston »

YZF wrote: post #257
tachyons wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take control over all water sources, electricity and disconnect it, ask people to leave their house without even enough food and destroy whatever they have gained during the life time. And still bomb them claiming that location they moved has military targets. https://www.aljazeera.com/gallery/2023/8/27/photos-palestini... (pre Oct 7)

"Al Jazeera is a Qatari state-owned Arabic-language news television network" Excuse me if I'm not going to take that as a source. Israel only provided some fraction of water and electricity to Gaza and is under no obligation to keep providing that in a state of war. Do you have other examples of countries at war when one side provides the other with water and electricity? Look- you're right that Israel has asked peop…

YZF wrote:

> Al Jazeera is a Qatari state-owned Arabic-language news television network"

You don't have to. Amnesty has written about water in Israel-Palestinian as well, here is a report:

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/11/the-occu...

> Israel only provided some fraction of water and electricity to Gaza and is under no obligation to keep providing that in a state of war.

Israel is actually the one who forced Egypt to not deliver aid for 2 weeks and is limiting it now to just 15 to 20 trucks a day:

"Israel imposed a total two-week blockade on the Palestinian territory, [...], on October 7." Then starting on October 20th or so "Israel has only agreed to allow the delivery of drinking water, food, medicine and other medical supplies. Israeli security forces are checking the contents of the trucks in a transit zone [in Egypt]."

https://www.dw.com/en/gaza-how-much-humanitarian-aid-is-gett...

Both the UN and WHO say that the aid is not enough:

"There are families that are unreachable and are probably starving to death," said Abeer Etefa, senior communications officer for the WFP in Egypt.

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/gaza-aid-world-food-prog...

HRW considers it a war crime and outright says it:

"Israel has also engaged in the collective punishment of Gaza’s population through cutting off food, water, electricity, and fuel. This is a war crime, as is willfully blocking humanitarian relief from reaching civilians in need."

https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/10/27/how-does-international-h...

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#287

Post by teleforce »

Guess which building first demolished to the ground by Israel military in Gaza at the beginning of the conflict? No price of getting the right answer, it's the Watan Tower building that hosted most of Gaza Internet Sevice Provider (ISP) companies Paltel and Jawwal and their infrastructure. It was also a hub for several international media outlets, including the Associated Press and Al Jazeera [1],[2],[3]. We are somewhow supposed to believe by Israel propaganda that the demolition of the Watan building is necessary to cripple the resistance but in war truth is always the first casualty that further leads to countless human casualties.

[1] Israels warns Palestinians on Facebook but Israel bombing decimated Gaza Internet Access:

https://theintercept.com/2023/10/12/israel-gaza-internet-acc...

[2] #KeepItOn: Telecommunications Blackout In The Gaza Strip Is An Attack On Human Rights:

https://m.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO2310/S00117/keepiton-telecom...

[3] Destruction of Watan Tower: A Blow to Press Freedom or a Military Necessity?

https://bnn.network/world/palestine/destruction-of-watan-tow...

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#288

Post by YZF »

jacquesm wrote: post #254
YZF wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this is true in general. Many people that support Israel are critical of Israeli policies in the west bank (including the US administration). I think there's a problem when you apply different standard to Jews vs. everyone else or are parroting some narrative that has anti-semitic aspects to it. For example, I would call people contesting the right of Israel to exist, despite many generations of Israeli…

The bit that seems to have really pissed me off is when the Hawks decided that they didn't want peace and Rabin was murdered. We got that close to stopping this or at least to seriously de-escalating it. That's when I realized it's not just one side that wants this conflict to be perpetrated, there are elements on both sides that see their case strengthened the longer the conflict lasts and the more lives are lost. B…

There's extra context which is the suicide bombing campaign by Hamas after Rabin was murdered. That is the true cause of the collapse of the Oslo process and the shift in Israeli public opinion from the majority supporting a two state solution of some form to the the majority believing Israel can never co-exist with the Palestinian Arabs.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#289

Post by mcphage »

YZF wrote: post #217
tachyons wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except it was just a an eyewash, people tried to move got killed on the way, people also got murdered in the so called safe areas by Israel.

Do you have a breakdown of how many civilian casualties were in the north vs. south? And how many were killed on the way? Israel denies attacking anyone on the way. There was plenty of reporting showing people moving along the main arteries that were recommended and those look clear with no debris or any other evidence of attack. I'm aware of a single incident where it was claimed Israel attacked someone evacuating a…

> Do you have a breakdown of how many civilian casualties were in the north vs. south? And how many were killed on the way?

I'm not really sure what you're asking for here. The IDF isn't there yet, so they don't know numbers killed. The Palestinians do, however Israel and the US don't believe their numbers.

...so... what is it that you expect to receive?

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#290

Post by invalidname »

user982 wrote: post #178
orionsbelt wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel has given repeated warnings for the north of Gaza to evacuate south for the past two weeks while Gaza has had internet. In addition, they have dropped leaflets all over the are stating the same thing.

Israel then bombed south Gaza after herding the Palestinians there: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/why-is-israel-atta...

That misrepresents localized bombings on specific terrorist holdouts in the south. If you look at aerial photos published by the IDF you can clearly see the level of destruction on the north which is at a different scale. Despite that even the inflated numbers published by the Hamas don't correlate to the number of bombs. I think it was about 7k dead when Israel claims it threw 7k bombs on the area.

That requires amazing precision and dedication, bombs are designed for mass killing. Yet even the inflated numbers show less than 1 casualty per bombing. Those numbers don't separate the number of actual combatants that were killed (as opposed to civilians).

I'm not for bombing in general, I think it's a terrible weapon. But the ground invasion will probably kill a lot more civilians as it's harder to fight in narrow streets. Stray bullets and shelling kill a lot of innocent bystanders.

Overall, Israel doesn't have a choice here. The Hamas is still holding civilian hostages. It is still firing missiles on civilian Israeli cities. It is the reason this is happening.

I'm sorry for the Palestinian people but they will probably be better off without the Hamas.

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