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The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

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Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#81

Post by mc32 »

culi wrote: post #33

Nearly all of the over 7k people killed in Gaza in the past few days are civilians. Sure Hamas, with the help of the media framing of this as a 9/11, gave them a good Casus belli, but Israel has always been good at finding Casus bellis. When Israel again invaded Gaza in 2014, they killed 2,310 people, 70% civilians and lost 67 soldiers in return. Even more destructive was the 7-10k homes completely demolished and 87k…

If the Palestinians had the same war machinery as the Israelis, do you think they’d be mindful of the ratios, or would they carry out their claims of erasing it and its population from the geography of the region?

I believe if they could the Hamas leadership would not only want to destroy the Israeli military and any collateral civilians but would, if they could also destroy all civilians.

Also realize many Palestinian civilians are victims of their own government who intentionally use them as human shields.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#82

Post by nwiswell »

bhouston wrote: post #36
petertodd wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's estimated that Hamas has between 30,000 and 40,000 soldiers(1), which is about 6% to 8% of Gaza's entire adult male population. There's no way of getting around it: if Israel finishes the job of eradicating Hamas, a large percentage of the Gazan population will be killed or captured, purely because so many of them are actively involved in Hamas. Anyway, if Gazan citizens learn the lessons of their mistakes, they…

petertodd wrote: > Anyway, if Gazan citizens learn the lessons of their mistakes, they still have a future. That is genocidal language where you are holding civilians accountable. The Gazan population does not favor Hamas according to polling prior to October 7th: https://twitter.com/ForeignAffairs/status/171800792755696451... Hamas was also boosted by Netanyahu in part to prevent a two-state solution and diminish mo…

> That is genocidal language where you are holding civilians accountable.

The entire situation is deeply regrettable and it's hard to find any heroes here, but I feel like we forget our own history so easily.

The United States, within living memory, conducted a firebombing campaign of Dresden, which had limited military value, killing over 25,000. We interned over 100,000 of our own citizens of Japanese ancestry. We conducted a firebombing campaign of Tokyo, killing around 100,000 civilians and leaving over a million homeless.

And of course we dropped two atomic weapons on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, killing mostly civilians and causing deep scarring both psychological and physiological for the survivors.

The reality is that these rules of war are more like guidelines. There is no one to enforce them if you win. When a nation feels existentially threatened, the gloves tend to come off.

I don't seek to excuse anything, what is happening is a tragedy and as a matter of public policy there needs to be more diplomatic costs associated with unnecessary loss of civilian life. But there are not many countries that truly occupy a moral high ground in this regard.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#83

Post by culi »

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #63
culi wrote: post #33

Nearly all of the over 7k people killed in Gaza in the past few days are civilians. Sure Hamas, with the help of the media framing of this as a 9/11, gave them a good Casus belli, but Israel has always been good at finding Casus bellis. When Israel again invaded Gaza in 2014, they killed 2,310 people, 70% civilians and lost 67 soldiers in return. Even more destructive was the 7-10k homes completely demolished and 87k…

If you think any other country with a massively more powerful army would put up with a neighbor intermittently terrorizing them and then hide behind civilians and not respond similarly, I'm not sure what to tell you. Doesn't make it right. But there's no easy way out of this. Look at the US response to 9-11 to see what other countries would do...

It is Israel that has been terrorizing Palestine. Between 2005-2008, 1,754 Palestinians and 117 Israelis have lost their lives due to the ongoing occupation. Between 2008-2023 2,329 more Palestinians and 308 more Israeli people lost their lives. The vast majority of Palestinian casualties are civilians. The vast majority of Israeli casualties are soldiers.

The one country that still supports the far right genocidal Netanyahu administration is the United States. The US has used its veto power in the UN 34 times since 1954 to block resolutions that would've otherwise passed and led to some peace in the area. Instead the US is ensuring Israel is never held accountable for its crimes

The entire rest of the world is up in protest currently. Americans are in an incredibly absurd denialist bubble:

https://www.vox.com/2023/10/25/23930875/protests-palestine-i...

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#84

Post by uluyol »

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #63
culi wrote: post #33

Nearly all of the over 7k people killed in Gaza in the past few days are civilians. Sure Hamas, with the help of the media framing of this as a 9/11, gave them a good Casus belli, but Israel has always been good at finding Casus bellis. When Israel again invaded Gaza in 2014, they killed 2,310 people, 70% civilians and lost 67 soldiers in return. Even more destructive was the 7-10k homes completely demolished and 87k…

If you think any other country with a massively more powerful army would put up with a neighbor intermittently terrorizing them and then hide behind civilians and not respond similarly, I'm not sure what to tell you. Doesn't make it right. But there's no easy way out of this. Look at the US response to 9-11 to see what other countries would do...

The Palestinians are not intermittently but continuously oppressed. Israel can stop it at any time but chooses not to, hence the retaliation by the Palestinians. What Israel is doing now is not retaliation but doubling down on their standard M.O.

You've got the history backwards, friend.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#85

Post by shihab »

logicchains wrote: post #54
petertodd wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because Russia's invasion is clearly illegal and immoral. Every act they do in furtherance of that goal is a crime. Every bullet fired, every cell phone tower and every power transformer destroyed. Israel is clearly defending themselves against a genocidal adversary who just killed more Jews in one day than any day since the Holocaust. They have every right to invade Gaza to eliminate that threat.

>Israel is clearly defending themselves against a genocidal adversary who just killed more Jews in one day than any day since the Holocaust And Israel had previously killed way more Palestinian civilians than that. Why is a Jewish life worth more than a Palestinian life?

The ground invasion hasn't even begun, they have already killed 6 times more people than Hamas did. [1]

[1] https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/27/middleeast/gaza-death-toll-re...

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#86

Post by ProAm »

culi wrote: post #33

Nearly all of the over 7k people killed in Gaza in the past few days are civilians. Sure Hamas, with the help of the media framing of this as a 9/11, gave them a good Casus belli, but Israel has always been good at finding Casus bellis. When Israel again invaded Gaza in 2014, they killed 2,310 people, 70% civilians and lost 67 soldiers in return. Even more destructive was the 7-10k homes completely demolished and 87k…

Don't kick a bee's nest?

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#87

Post by enterprise_cog »

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #63
culi wrote: post #33

Nearly all of the over 7k people killed in Gaza in the past few days are civilians. Sure Hamas, with the help of the media framing of this as a 9/11, gave them a good Casus belli, but Israel has always been good at finding Casus bellis. When Israel again invaded Gaza in 2014, they killed 2,310 people, 70% civilians and lost 67 soldiers in return. Even more destructive was the 7-10k homes completely demolished and 87k…

If you think any other country with a massively more powerful army would put up with a neighbor intermittently terrorizing them and then hide behind civilians and not respond similarly, I'm not sure what to tell you. Doesn't make it right. But there's no easy way out of this. Look at the US response to 9-11 to see what other countries would do...

It’s a 25x5 mile strip of land, where Palestinians aren’t even allowed to build near the border.

Where exactly are they supposed to operate out of?

And it turns out it’s quite easy to not bomb civilians. You don’t drop bombs in cities.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#88

Post by jeromegv »

petertodd wrote: post #66
bhouston wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

petertodd wrote: > Anyway, if Gazan citizens learn the lessons of their mistakes, they still have a future. That is genocidal language where you are holding civilians accountable. The Gazan population does not favor Hamas according to polling prior to October 7th: https://twitter.com/ForeignAffairs/status/171800792755696451... Hamas was also boosted by Netanyahu in part to prevent a two-state solution and diminish mo…

Hamas has an estimated 30,000 to 40,000 soldiers(1). That's about 6% to 8% of the entire adult Gazan male population. It's impossible to have that many soldiers without widespread support. Maybe not a majority. But certainly a significant minority. Like it or not, a significant percentage of the adult Gazan population are responsible for Hamas because they're actively fighting for Hamas or directly supporting them. P…

It’s a dictatorial regime. Just like Iran. The amount of soldiers as % of population is totally irrelevant when people are forced into it.

You are putting the blame of the situation on the civilians. That is the problem. Do you think they chose to live in such a place? Did you read on how Hamas came into power and who helped them?

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#90

Post by culi »

paulvnickerson wrote: post #72
culi wrote: post #33

Nearly all of the over 7k people killed in Gaza in the past few days are civilians. Sure Hamas, with the help of the media framing of this as a 9/11, gave them a good Casus belli, but Israel has always been good at finding Casus bellis. When Israel again invaded Gaza in 2014, they killed 2,310 people, 70% civilians and lost 67 soldiers in return. Even more destructive was the 7-10k homes completely demolished and 87k…

> Nearly all of the over 7k people killed in Gaza in the past few days are civilians. This number comes from Hamas, so I would take it with a grain of salt. Hamas intentionally uses its civilians as shields for their military equipment. Here is a quote from Hamas's 1988 charter: "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. T…

It's the Health Ministry in Gaza and they've released the exact names of all 6,747 people they could account for.

The UN said just 5 days ago that the figure was 5k. Given the increase in intensity 7k does not at all seem unreasonable to me

https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/10/1142687

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