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'Not of faculty quality': How Penn mistreated Katalin Karikó

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Re: 'Not of faculty quality': How Penn mistreated Katalin Karikó

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the university since they take a very hefty cut (50-100%! btw this doubles the "cost" of the grant, it doesn't lessen the amount the professor gets) Don't forget that this is actually money laundering. Our NIH grants had major strings attached, like "you may not buy non-instrumentation computers" (at least, that's what I was told, I did not actually get to read the grants). So the University helpfully launders the…

Wow—you and I live in different university universes. The overheads are essential to running research universities. They are definitely not kickbacks. This is obvious when comparing research costs at national laboratories versus research costs for comparable work at most universities.

Overhead rates at pure research non-profits are much lower than at universities. The difference is the amount of bureaucracy.

Re: 'Not of faculty quality': How Penn mistreated Katalin Karikó

#242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they take a very hefty cut (50-100%! btw this doubles the "cost" of the grant, it doesn't lessen the amount the professor gets This leads to some very interesting conversations at universities. "Your department doesn't bring in many grants, so we can't grant your budget request." "But grants aren't revenue. They're money used to cover the expense of doing research." "Yes, but they bring in overhead." Then when the…

Even more baffling, there are studies showing that most US universities actually manage to lose money on federally funded research. Yes, the overhead rates are obscene, but somehow the compliance costs are even greater.

Why obscene? Is rent obscene. Building, supporting, and growing research space does have expenses. And federal grants require much administrative support. Overheads are typically 50% on top of the direct research support-$1 support for every $2 of research effort. Completely reasonable.

Re: 'Not of faculty quality': How Penn mistreated Katalin Karikó

#243

Reminder that: 1) Ken Iverson who invented the APL programming language and went on to win the Turing Award in 1979, had already published 'that one little book' that was considered insufficient for tenure, but which formed the basis for the award. 2) tubes remained the main focus of MIT faculty for quite some years after the transistor was invented. It was Robert Noyce and the people he worked with at Grinnell Colle…

I also find it's worth reflecting that there was a time when things were not so insane. Being unable to work at Cambridge due to a lack of advanced degress, Wittgenstein was famously pushed, at 40, to just submit his Tractatus as a PhD thesis so that he could get his PhD from Cambridge.

One of his examiners, G.E. Moore, stated the following on his examiners report:

"I myself consider that this is a work of genius; but, even if I am completely mistaken and it is nothing of the sort, it is well above the standard required for the Ph.D. degree."

Having spent a good bit of time in academia I cannot imagine an institution that would make a statement so both humble and honest. Wittgenstein today would remain an interesting weirdo that, since never being formerly accredited, would be wildly considered as not worth taking seriously.

What terrifies me about today's academic environment is not only the it's own decline in quality, but it's staunch refusal to admit any knowledge created outside its walls as admissible.

Re: 'Not of faculty quality': How Penn mistreated Katalin Karikó

#244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they take a very hefty cut (50-100%! btw this doubles the "cost" of the grant, it doesn't lessen the amount the professor gets This leads to some very interesting conversations at universities. "Your department doesn't bring in many grants, so we can't grant your budget request." "But grants aren't revenue. They're money used to cover the expense of doing research." "Yes, but they bring in overhead." Then when the…

American universities are a fantastic scheme. I'm working on a project right now to see if I can bring this to high schools. They're a massive machine to move money from taxpayers into certain organizations very effectively. That's why you'll see that the loudest voices for student loan forgiveness go to these universities. Come on, you have a Divinities degree from Harvard? That's a fictional thing. Of course you're…

I've worked in postsecondary policy for a dozen years and while this perspective is cynical,it's painfully close to reality in many cases. "Paying the Price" by Sarah Goldrick-Rab chronicles some horrifying case studies , if you're interested.

Re: 'Not of faculty quality': How Penn mistreated Katalin Karikó

#245
post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

U of Austin is having difficulty because it's defined from the jump as a right-wing institution.

I'm honestly interested in what defines them as "right wing". All I'm seeing is media describe them as "anti-woke" and "anti-cancel culture".

Cancel culture is just a term for "if you say something terrible, there may be consequences." Being opposed to consequences for saying or doing terrible things is, apparently, a key tenet of the American right.

When someone uses the term "anti-woke," what they are signaling is an opposition to things like fairness, awareness of systemic racism and sexism, and the ability of LGBTQ folks to live openly without fear. As with the prior paragraph, though, opposition to these things is a key position of the American Republican party.

Q.E.D.

Re: 'Not of faculty quality': How Penn mistreated Katalin Karikó

#246
In 2013, Karikó said she returned to her lab after spending time away to find all of her belongings having been packed, moved, and misplaced at Grady's direction.

As a woman who wonders how we solve this, I feel like the piece doesn't cast light on actionable means to make real progress. It implicitly seems to assume a thing the world calls sexism but offers no real solutions.

Presumably, Grady was a big factor here. Why was he such a problem? There's no real explanation for his behavior and we are unlikely to ever learn anything meaningful about what drove his decisions.

It airs dirty laundry, which is perhaps an essential first step in being able to analyze the problem space: First, we have to overcome the taboo against speaking of such things.

But then the initial attempts to speak of it tend to fall within some Overton Window of acceptable assumptions and this seems to do little or nothing to give women a viable path forward.

Re: 'Not of faculty quality': How Penn mistreated Katalin Karikó

#247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being a good teacher absolutely plays a role in teaching positions. Source: I work in such a teaching position and have served on several search committees.

The question was about getting such a position. Do you know any case where a hiring decision was decided by somebody being thought to be bad at teaching? Or somebody being significantly better at teaching than somebody else? How does a hiring committee evaluate somebody's teaching quality? (Not necessarily the same as teaching experience)

Most grad students, particularly ones they are interested in staying in, end up having to do some teaching or have a teaching assistant role at some point. I’m sure it is a + on the resume. Nothing individually is a deal breaker or deal maker, everything is factored in, right?

Re: 'Not of faculty quality': How Penn mistreated Katalin Karikó

#248

As someone who is not in academia, I'm curious how dysfunctional the incentive structures of these institutions really are? Is it more the case that aggrieved professors doing actually good research is just a rare situation bound to happen every once in a while?

I've been in academics as a tenured faculty member and in other capacities and this story rings very true to me. Obviously extreme but by the same token clearly illustrative of prototypical problems. Note that this isn't the first Nobel prize winner in recent years to point out similar issues.

There's a kind of passing the buck phenomenon I think, for lack of a better way of putting it, combined with denial about the nature of research which is at its best by definition novel and risky. Basically no one wants to actually pay for anything, except for the federal government. The state or university doesn't say "we happily fund scientific advances", they expect it to be funded by the federal government. I always liken it to hiring a plumber, but with the expectation that they make money for you instead of fixing your plumbing, or that you hire them ostensibly for the latter but actually for the former. At some point there has to be service or product provision that is being paid for, and in our current society this is the federal government.

There are many complicating factors, like the fact that "funding" for all intents and purposes as far as a university is concerned means "federal government" (this isn't actually true but is mostly true), or that the evaluations of grants are based on current consensus about what is likely to produce significant findings, which deincentivizes novel research, or that projects rather than persons are funded, or that universities are administratively topheavy, or that the funding system also incentivizes pyramid schemes of graduate school, etc.

There are functional departments and universities where people can supportively function in the current zeitgeist, and some smart people can get funding for good grants. But the incentive structures are incredibly perverse now at most institutions, and basically boil down to how much money you bring in in the form of indirect funds on grants. I have been in conversations with colleagues at other universities, who were arguing about faculty who were bringing in large grant amounts, but from non-federal sources, with no indirect funds, and how this was unacceptable because it didn't benefit the university financially sufficiently even though it paid for grad students etc.

Yes universities have costs etc but in the current system Karikó's experience was bound to happen. Peter Higgs has said he would never be hired today and it's probably true. All of this will continue, or you just won't hear about certain advances because they will be shut down and never develop.

Re: 'Not of faculty quality': How Penn mistreated Katalin Karikó

#249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s really all a professor does. You’re the boss of 5-10 people that are researching your half baked ideas Turing them into quarter baked ideas. Managing them + other obligations take up all their time. Very little is spent getting their hands dirty.

Why all of this cynicism? Science research at many universities is awesome and efficient. And in biomedical research and CS it is kicking ass. We are a gloomy bunch here in HN.

That does not match my experience with multiple universities and national labs, as a grad student and a member of research staff. Not at all. Where the heck are you at where it's actually working out for once?

Re: 'Not of faculty quality': How Penn mistreated Katalin Karikó

#250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hm, I guess I just don't know enough about how grants work to understand what's going on.

It’s not laundering money in the criminal sense, it’s just removing restrictions and contractual limitations. If I’m a grant giver, I want my money to go towards the consumables of research, not fund CapEx that can be used for someone else’s research. If I’m a lab, I want/need fancy and reusable equipment, which is excluded in the grant terms. Some of the grant money goes to “university administration” (pick your ter…

To provide a helpful analogy:

Suppose you want to get karma for a low-effort take on an engineering forum. If you say, for example, "academia is just like the mafia," the low-effort will be immediately recognized and down-voted.

Alternatively, you can make an assertion that is outside of the scope of engineering. Like "this is actually money laundering." Engineers don't have the expertise to assess that, but they will happily carry on a discussion of whatever process you describe for that misnomer.

Voila! Your karma has been granted.

Now you just have to devote a tiny tiny amount of time and energy downstream to clarify that you weren't talking about "actually money laundering" in the sense of, you know, "general money", but rather something else entirely.

In my analogy, that tiny tiny amount of time and energy is like the lab equipment that the university provides to the poor little grant recipient.

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