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'Not of faculty quality': How Penn mistreated Katalin Karikó

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221–230 of 361 posts

Re: 'Not of faculty quality': How Penn mistreated Katalin Karikó

#221

My wife was hired last year as a full time professor and leads her own lab. By far the largest pressure on new faculty is the ability to get money into her lab, and by extension the university since they take a very hefty cut (50-100%! btw this doubles the "cost" of the grant, it doesn't lessen the amount the professor gets). Getting approved for the money via the grant process means having published "interesting" re…

> the university since they take a very hefty cut (50-100%! btw this doubles the "cost" of the grant, it doesn't lessen the amount the professor gets) Don't forget that this is actually money laundering. Our NIH grants had major strings attached, like "you may not buy non-instrumentation computers" (at least, that's what I was told, I did not actually get to read the grants). So the University helpfully launders the…

Universities are the best at creative accounting. PhD students get charged “tuition” but that is normally (hopefully) out of the pocket of their advisor or another fellowship. So your pay is valued at 120k despite you seeing a quarter of that.

I know some grad students that used that fact to their advantage when applying for credit cards but it’s still gross.

Re: 'Not of faculty quality': How Penn mistreated Katalin Karikó

#222
post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My dad used to be a full time professor of aerospace engineering. He liked the research, and he didn't mind teaching, but he quit after a few years because he absolutely hated having to play "salesman" all the time. He found himself seeing everyone as "potential funding", and he personally found it kind of hard to turn that mentality off. He went back to industry after that, which has its share of legitimate problems…

Is that true that aerospace engineers are not expected to act as sales people? I've certainly found that in software, engineers who don't sell their work get reassigned or laid off.

It’s really all a professor does. You’re the boss of 5-10 people that are researching your half baked ideas Turing them into quarter baked ideas. Managing them + other obligations take up all their time. Very little is spent getting their hands dirty.

Re: 'Not of faculty quality': How Penn mistreated Katalin Karikó

#223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they take a very hefty cut (50-100%! btw this doubles the "cost" of the grant, it doesn't lessen the amount the professor gets This leads to some very interesting conversations at universities. "Your department doesn't bring in many grants, so we can't grant your budget request." "But grants aren't revenue. They're money used to cover the expense of doing research." "Yes, but they bring in overhead." Then when the…

American universities are a fantastic scheme. I'm working on a project right now to see if I can bring this to high schools. They're a massive machine to move money from taxpayers into certain organizations very effectively. That's why you'll see that the loudest voices for student loan forgiveness go to these universities. Come on, you have a Divinities degree from Harvard? That's a fictional thing. Of course you're…

Harvard’s Divinity School is basically why the university exists in the first place and is very real.

The cost of tuition for undergrads at schools is certainly ridiculous and a way to siphon money from the government though. That said, I take umbrage with the people that complain about liberal arts degrees. The education is as valuable as any other kind of education in that it hones critical thinking skills in a specific discipline. Those skills are applicable to many, many jobs. The engineers I knew and liberal arts students I knew that struggled to get jobs after college struggled because they had nothing else on their resume when they graduated because they put zero thought into getting a job until school was over.

Re: 'Not of faculty quality': How Penn mistreated Katalin Karikó

#225
UPenn made the right decision for itself. If Kariko was the real deal, UPenn would still get credit for Nobel. If Kariko was a dud, they let go of a liability early.

There is absolutely no incentive for UPenn to keep a professor who isn’t bringing in money.

Re: 'Not of faculty quality': How Penn mistreated Katalin Karikó

#226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the university since they take a very hefty cut (50-100%! btw this doubles the "cost" of the grant, it doesn't lessen the amount the professor gets) Don't forget that this is actually money laundering. Our NIH grants had major strings attached, like "you may not buy non-instrumentation computers" (at least, that's what I was told, I did not actually get to read the grants). So the University helpfully launders the…

Universities are the best at creative accounting. PhD students get charged “tuition” but that is normally (hopefully) out of the pocket of their advisor or another fellowship. So your pay is valued at 120k despite you seeing a quarter of that. I know some grad students that used that fact to their advantage when applying for credit cards but it’s still gross.

How does treating the tuition as a charge and payment (instead of the tuition being zero) benefit the university?

Re: 'Not of faculty quality': How Penn mistreated Katalin Karikó

#228

My wife was hired last year as a full time professor and leads her own lab. By far the largest pressure on new faculty is the ability to get money into her lab, and by extension the university since they take a very hefty cut (50-100%! btw this doubles the "cost" of the grant, it doesn't lessen the amount the professor gets). Getting approved for the money via the grant process means having published "interesting" re…

> Quality is an after thought taken care of by what passes for peer review.

Cynical and generally wrong. Peer review of papers and grant applications is obviously far from perfect—-just like humanity and our messy cultures—-but it often works well nonetheless.

We read the horror stories but read less about shining successes.

Re: 'Not of faculty quality': How Penn mistreated Katalin Karikó

#229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're talking about shifting a culture, and the culture is defined by the people. The current doctoral student mentality will define the future of academia, and most doctoral students are disheartened by the idea of writing grants for their careers. So, any future cultural solution will start with doctoral students. A solution which should help fix the culture is: (1) universities significantly reduce their total nu…

In some European countries, PhD students are paid a salary equivalent to a middle-class income in that country, and PhD slots are already few. Nevertheless, even there there is the same grant culture that everyone is complaining about here. I don’t see how the three things you propose would fix things.

If you're taking about sustaining a culture change, the doctoral students must be selected such that they will both seek academic research and avoid grant-seeking behaviors. That's why I think it's a solution, but I suppose it's not THE solution.

A few more ideas which come to mind right now include:

- Stop treating the grant-seeking people as members of the faculty. If a professor is interested in doing academic research, the department funds a maximum of two doctoral students (something done at IIT Bombay, to my knowledge, though the exact quantity may vary). Hire grant-seeking researchers exclusively in a university-affiliated "research institute", physically and departmentally removed from the faculty. Don't call them professors; call them researchers.

- Make faculty prioritize. I know multiple computer science faculty who are tenured professors at a major institution but are actually working full-time for tech companies, yet they weren't on sabbatical. At least one of these professors moved across the country to the Bay Area, was (to my knowledge) relived of their teaching duties, and still tried to advise doctoral students. This practice should not be allowed. Free up the salary for faculty who care about the core mission of the university: education.

- Develop an intensive doctoral curriculum tightly focused on performing academic research. To my knowledge, the acquisition of academic research skills is arcane. Certainly the academic advisor should pass these skills to their student, but it seems that too many faculty are wrapped up in grant-seeking behaviors to show them. Doctoral students need to be explicitly taught the necessary skills to be a successful professor, which can only happen when the vast majority of doctoral students are attempting to perform academic research and not grant-seeking research.

- Create a researcher pathway in the "research institute." If a student applies for the doctoral program but doesn't wish to perform academic research in their career, offer them a junior researcher position in the research institute with opportunities to advance as a researcher, which is honestly what some students who get their doctoral degree actually want. If one was to award a terminal degree to the researcher, it would not be a PhD.

I am an eternal optimist on these topics. I strongly believe that universities can still thrive, but they need to adapt by making hard administrative delineations and creating alternative paths for entrants.

Re: 'Not of faculty quality': How Penn mistreated Katalin Karikó

#230
post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

U of Austin is having difficulty because it's defined from the jump as a right-wing institution.

I'm honestly interested in what defines them as "right wing". All I'm seeing is media describe them as "anti-woke" and "anti-cancel culture".

Belief in free speeh and other traditional values of academic inquiry is considered right wing at best, harmful at worst.
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