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Study shows antibodies against PEG in 83% of the German population

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Re: Study shows antibodies against PEG in 83% of the German population

#61

Post by ulnarkressty »

unsupp0rted wrote: post #12
geraldhh wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> colonoscopies the plural makes me curious; for medical reasons?

I get a colonoscopy every n years. Where n is some number between 1 and 5, depending on whether they found polyps or something the previous time. It's not that onerous, except that I assume going under propofol + midazolam comes with cognitive risks each time, and this might be cumulative. With that in mind, no idea how the risk/reward math of regular endoscopy/colonoscopy checkups works out.

> It's not that onerous, except that I assume going under propofol + midazolam comes with cognitive risks each time, and this might be cumulative.

Do you have any sources for this? I'm also wary of going under, even if it's once every 3 years.

Re: Study shows antibodies against PEG in 83% of the German population

#62

Post by galangalalgol »

kragen wrote: post #46
atomicnumber3 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's be real though - sugar tends to be a lot more palatable than butter, especially when baked or dissolved in acid. I could eat an entire bag of crunch bars, but set me down with a box of sticks of butter and I'm not going to make much progress. Fats also tend to be more filling, and aren't as addictive as sugar, especially refined sugar. So I think the real cause here is we've discovered novel ways for making hug…

i think it's almost certainly something about industrially-mass-produced food that tubs of butter don't share, so i think you're a bit closer to the mark. and sugary drinks are surely an especially bad food even among industrially-mass-produced foods clearly calorie density alone is not it. and i don't think it's even as simple as 'palatability'. even if you mix cacao, butter, sugar, vanillin, and citric acid into ca…

You can get fruits and fruit juices in your winter months, that is newer. OJ came in small glasses because it too was a luxury.

But HN linked an article a few years back about some research indicating that in the 1980s people ate as many or more callories, and got on average less physical activity, but were significantly less overweight. They reaction was that it was wrong, because thermodynamics, but the thermodynamic argument is a vast oversimplification. We can and do excrete plenty of energy such that other organisms post process our waste. Fat in particular can go unused with little notice. We can burn or conserve energy in ways that are hard to measure by just observing behavior. Given that complexity, it wouldn't surprise me that chronic inflammation could be a culprit. It could be the removal of a burden too, such that we are more efficient at processing calories. The food equivalent of meth amphetamine being available everywhere and cheaply doesn't help either, but enough people are studying it that I don't think it will be one simple thing.

Re: Study shows antibodies against PEG in 83% of the German population

#63

Post by unsupp0rted »

DoingIsLearning wrote: post #31
unsupp0rted wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get a colonoscopy every n years. Where n is some number between 1 and 5, depending on whether they found polyps or something the previous time. It's not that onerous, except that I assume going under propofol + midazolam comes with cognitive risks each time, and this might be cumulative. With that in mind, no idea how the risk/reward math of regular endoscopy/colonoscopy checkups works out.

Perhaps this is something you already know but nevertheless as long as you are able to relax and remain calm throughout the procedure nobody should stop you from choosing to just take some benzos and do some breathing exercises throughout the procedure. (Not a doctor but I worked briefly on endoscope tech in the past) The use of propofol depends greatly on their protocol and the country you are in, but it is not some…

One time in Korea they tried an endoscopy on me completely raw. I think they sprayed my throat first.

This wasn’t olden times, it was just a decade back.

I promptly gagged, pulled out the scope and vomited.

Re: Study shows antibodies against PEG in 83% of the German population

#64

Post by Metacelsus »

kragen wrote: post #23
jcfrei wrote: post #17

I wonder if the same also happens with Propylene glycol (PG)? Seems to be widely used in cosmetics as well but has a different molecular structure.

no 'glycol' just means an organic molecule with two hydroxyl groups peg is a polymer of ethylene glycol (which monomer is, incidentally, deadly, while peg is generally considered nontoxic) certainly some functional groups can be intrinsically toxic (organotin compounds come to mind) but you have hydroxyl groups on damn near every molecule in your body, including all the water molecules

> peg doesn't have two hydroxyl groups, it has thousands, because it's not a glycol, it's a polymer of ethylene glycol

PEG does have exactly two hydroxyl groups: one at each end of the polymer chain.

The rest are ether linkages, not hydroxyl. You're right that PEG is quite different from ethylene glycol monomer, but be careful accusing people of being ignorant when your own chemistry knowledge is not the best.

Re: Study shows antibodies against PEG in 83% of the German population

#65

Post by toast0 »

atomicnumber3 wrote: post #38
kragen wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

olive oil has been widely available for the last 7000 years, butter for ten thousand years, but the obesity pandemic is only 50 years old

Let's be real though - sugar tends to be a lot more palatable than butter, especially when baked or dissolved in acid. I could eat an entire bag of crunch bars, but set me down with a box of sticks of butter and I'm not going to make much progress. Fats also tend to be more filling, and aren't as addictive as sugar, especially refined sugar. So I think the real cause here is we've discovered novel ways for making hug…

For me, soda with hugh fructose corn syrup is way easier to drink a lot of than soda with sugar too.

In my mind, the industry trend of 'reduced fat' products that tend to have increased sugar, and the substitution of HFCS for sugar both contribute towards easier over consumption of calories.

Re: Study shows antibodies against PEG in 83% of the German population

#66

Post by thrwwyunpopular »

4death4 wrote: post #57
kragen wrote: post #19

i guess they'll just have to use lalr(1) more seriously, i wonder if something like this is a cause of the obesity pandemic: an unrecognized widespread immune response to a novel food additive provoking continuous low-level inflammation though probably not peg itself; e1521 is not in that many foods, not like xanthan gum or nanoparticles of titanium dioxide

Just speaking from personal experience, I’m fat because I eat cake and ice cream every day and walk 6,000 steps on a good day. I don’t really see a mystery here tbh.

The prevalence of sugar in modern diets along with how ludicrously industrialized food has become, particularly in America, is likely still the main cause for obesity rates.

People point out all these other secondary factors but we should really focus on the 80%, the big ticket item.

It's damn near impossible to find nutritiously acceptable breakfast, lunch and dinner choices near the office in big cities in America. From the American perspective, the choices are all fine because that's all people know. But relative to what you can find in Europe or even Latin America, the alternatives are downright appalling.

"Food manufacturing" should be a banned term.

Re: Study shows antibodies against PEG in 83% of the German population

#67

Post by modo_mario »

kragen wrote: post #30
idiotsecant wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the primary cause of the obesity epidemic is the widespread availability of cheap calorie dense food and a few hundred million years of evolution devoted to making biological machines designed to consume as much calorie dense food as they could find.

olive oil has been widely available for the last 7000 years, butter for ten thousand years, but the obesity pandemic is only 50 years old

The issue is mostly sugars i'd guess. Not fats.

Re: Study shows antibodies against PEG in 83% of the German population

#68

Post by bluescrn »

kragen wrote: post #46
atomicnumber3 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's be real though - sugar tends to be a lot more palatable than butter, especially when baked or dissolved in acid. I could eat an entire bag of crunch bars, but set me down with a box of sticks of butter and I'm not going to make much progress. Fats also tend to be more filling, and aren't as addictive as sugar, especially refined sugar. So I think the real cause here is we've discovered novel ways for making hug…

i think it's almost certainly something about industrially-mass-produced food that tubs of butter don't share, so i think you're a bit closer to the mark. and sugary drinks are surely an especially bad food even among industrially-mass-produced foods clearly calorie density alone is not it. and i don't think it's even as simple as 'palatability'. even if you mix cacao, butter, sugar, vanillin, and citric acid into ca…

Food is part of the equation (marketing and availabity as well as ingredients)

But then there's the rise of the car, and of screen-based jobs/lifestyles, and other little conveniences that remove any last little bits of physical effort from life, from takeaway delivery to dishwashers to power tools.

Exercise used to be an unavoidable part of life.

Re: Study shows antibodies against PEG in 83% of the German population

#69

Post by checkyoursudo »

atomicnumber3 wrote: post #38
kragen wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

olive oil has been widely available for the last 7000 years, butter for ten thousand years, but the obesity pandemic is only 50 years old

Let's be real though - sugar tends to be a lot more palatable than butter, especially when baked or dissolved in acid. I could eat an entire bag of crunch bars, but set me down with a box of sticks of butter and I'm not going to make much progress. Fats also tend to be more filling, and aren't as addictive as sugar, especially refined sugar. So I think the real cause here is we've discovered novel ways for making hug…

> I'm not going to make much progress

Not with that attitude you're not.

> So I think the real cause here is we've discovered novel ways for making huge amounts of calories both palatable and addictive in a way things have never been before.

I was just thinking about this earlier today.

I had a friend whom I would swear was actually, literally addicted to McDonald's burgers and fries. He wouldn't usually go seek out just any old burgers and fries, so I have a hard time saying he was addicted to them in general. I think that McDonald's (and to be clear, I am not blaming the Golden Arches here) had just some right taste that he could not help himself.

I don't like food particularly much at all, so I have never really felt like "oh that was so good I want more," but I can kind of see what you are saying here.

Re: Study shows antibodies against PEG in 83% of the German population

#70

Post by galangalalgol »

Pigalowda wrote: post #52
kragen wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's almost as ineffective when undertaken on your own initiative; that's where the 95% number comes from diet and exercise is clearly the proximate cause of obesity, but the question is what drives diet and exercise, and what changed so suddenly?

Education and socioeconomic status correlate with lower obesity rates, healthy diet, and exercise. The “sudden” change is easy to see in the supermarket. Most people don’t shop at Whole Foods, Sprouts, or Central market. Go to Walmart and admire all of the densely caloric colorful boxed foods. Did you know young people actually use door dash/uber to get their fast food? It’s wild. So not even expending a few calories…

Stress is a leading cause of inflammation. Financial insecurity causes stress and lack of free time to exercise or prepare meals. Hard to separate the variables.

The drive to eat and what is strongly influenced by gut biome. Fecal transplants have created new food preferences.

Even saying diet and exercise are the proximate cause may be an oversimplication. We know that the same level of activity and food intake can produce different results in different people. That doesn't violate thermodynamics. There are caloric expenditures that are not measured in such studies, like incomplete digestion and thermal regulation.

People shouldn't eat what they are eating, and they should have alternatives that are healthy for them (which also varies by person, but is almost never equal parts transfat and fructose with a petroleum based dye to make it pretty and to cut the sweetness, enough salt to cure a whole pig).

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