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Why I hate search

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61–70 of 78 posts

Re: Why I hate search

#61

Search is dead. Long live the semantic web.

I'm not sure why you were downvoted. "Semantic Web" was the first thing that came to my mind after reading the first couple paragraphs of the article. I thought he was going to head that direction as well. I was sorely disappointed!

There are surely diminishing returns for doing increasingly sophisticated things with the contents of HTML tags to parse and understand webpages, using inbound links to rank them, etc.

Cory Doctorow's essay, "Metacrap," does a great job of listing the reasons a Semantic Web-style metadata attempt will always fail when left to the "public" to implement. One thing that the old human-run Yahoo! and the Open Directory Project do get right are the quality of results, but since updates are made at the speed of human, these seem to be pretty much impossible to keep current.

Perhaps there is some neat way to use everyone's browsing histories to create a semantic link between content on the web. But that will never happen because of (extremely valid) privacy concerns.

Well, shame on the author for writing such a myopic rant piece containing no new ideas or proposals.

Re: Why I hate search

#62
post #9

He's not quite making the leap I thought he would, so I'll make it. Our browsers are dumb , and encourage 'search'. Google's made inroads by making a faster browser that makes it easier to 'search' (through them, of course), but keeping track of that information in the browser sucks. Browser bookmark tools are a joke, and web-based ones, while better, generally aren't much better. I envision a 'browser' that can trac…

It's sad to me only one person here seems to "get" his point. When I search for something, I still tend to have to open four or five pages to get the answer I'm looking for.

"javascript remove part of an array"

Why when I "search" for that, do I have to parse, in my brain, titles, descriptions (and so on) just to get my answer? I've searched for this a few times before,I know, because I'm terrible at remembering particular functions across languages.

Why can't my browser know when I've found the answer before? Hell, why can't my browser even offer me an option to remember that answer. I'll be happy to highlight it for it, but it's clunky and clumsy with a dumb bookmark. No nuance. Nothing was solved. And god forbid I bookmark every answer I look for; try searching through that.

Re: Why I hate search

#64

I don't agree entirely with OP, but there is truth in what he says. > The more ugly blue links you serve up, the more time users have to click on ads. Serve up bad results and the user must search again and this doubles the number of sponsored links you get paid for. Why be part of the solution when being part of the problem pays so damn well? One thing that to me seems like a no brainer is for google to have user-co…

try the search engine blekko. see 'slastags' this is exactly what you propose. User curated vertical search engines...

Re: Why I hate search

#65
post #30

I don't agree entirely with OP, but there is truth in what he says. > The more ugly blue links you serve up, the more time users have to click on ads. Serve up bad results and the user must search again and this doubles the number of sponsored links you get paid for. Why be part of the solution when being part of the problem pays so damn well? One thing that to me seems like a no brainer is for google to have user-co…

Um...isn't this what Google+ is supposed to do, in effect? By registering your +1's for sites and users, Google gets a good fix of where you like your information from. However, the solution you propose would fail if similar precedents are to be considered. Users do not like manually curating lists (remember Facebook friend lists?). On a philosophical point, your solution requires that users know what they don't know…

disclaimer I work at blekko. What you are describing is like saying that wikipedia is useless because not everyone edits articles. As it turns out, a very small number of people can curate an enormous amount of content on the web, and you can get very good results. try searching for 'cure for headaches /monte' on blekko. the '/monte' slashtag gives you results for bing, blekko and google, with branding removed.

Re: Why I hate search

#66
post #9

He's not quite making the leap I thought he would, so I'll make it. Our browsers are dumb , and encourage 'search'. Google's made inroads by making a faster browser that makes it easier to 'search' (through them, of course), but keeping track of that information in the browser sucks. Browser bookmark tools are a joke, and web-based ones, while better, generally aren't much better. I envision a 'browser' that can trac…

It's sad to me only one person here seems to "get" his point. When I search for something, I still tend to have to open four or five pages to get the answer I'm looking for. "javascript remove part of an array" Why when I "search" for that, do I have to parse, in my brain, titles, descriptions (and so on) just to get my answer? I've searched for this a few times before,I know, because I'm terrible at remembering part…

I see your point, but I don't think it's a real problem. Bookmark a Javascript reference and then you can go there directly, no searching necessary.

If it's specifically previously answered queries you're interested in, maybe something like OneNote would be a better solution? Then you could search your notes and probably find the old answer with a lot less noise.

Re: Why I hate search

#67
post #35
post #9

He's not quite making the leap I thought he would, so I'll make it. Our browsers are dumb , and encourage 'search'. Google's made inroads by making a faster browser that makes it easier to 'search' (through them, of course), but keeping track of that information in the browser sucks. Browser bookmark tools are a joke, and web-based ones, while better, generally aren't much better. I envision a 'browser' that can trac…

I've found the cases you describe to be one of these areas where Firefox seems to behave way superior than Chrome. It's not entirely as advanced as you describe of course, but usually just typing parts of a few key words returns a list of relevant sites you've ever been to, and the ranking is very good. The algorithm seems to even take into account whether you originally typed in the link etc. In general, if you've v…

With Vimperator and the command-line input, it's downright uncanny. For me to open, say, Hacker News, I'll type ":o[tab] hacker new[tab]" and a list of completions will appear. Including the main page, my comments thread, etc.

Completions are based on history and bookmarks and includes not just URLs but page titles, bookmark text, and tags, possibly more (I'm still figuring this out).

Plus you lose all the menubars and crap that steal vertical real estate.

vimperator + tree style tab + ghostery + noscript + adblock plus + all-in-one sidebar + autopager + remove it permanently makes for a pretty slick browsing experience.

Chrome is better IMO as an applications interface. Especially, of course, Google's apps: gmail, maps, G+.

I'm leaning strongly toward a bifurcation of browsers. One mode is information aquisition / research, the other is as an AJAX web-app engine. The two needs differ, and my extensively tweeked Firefox config doesn't play particularly well with applications (GMail's keyboard shortcuts, f'rex). But it makes actually, you know, surfing the web, much better.

Re: Why I hate search

#68
I'm beginning to get a clearer picture of what I believe is going to replace (or more accurately, make irrelevant) current search engines. Most of the pieces are already in place.

Let's say I'm in the mood for a donut, but I can't remember how late my favorite donut place is open (as if, but bear with me).

If I had a knowledgable human at my disposal, I could ask them "When does that donut place close?"

They might answer that "they're open for another hour."

There are two important differences between this and search:

First, my friend uses contextual data s/he knows about me to determine what specifically it is that I want to know, and takes my "query" in natural language. Services like Siri already go a long way toward making this a reality, and good natural language search queries have been quite usable for years now.

Second, the answer is a natural language representation of the information I was looking for, rather than a pointer to where I can find it. Wolfram Alpha does a pretty good job of this if your query is about math or science or some other type of data that can be relatively straightforwardly curated.

If I do the same with Google, I get a Yahoo Answers page asking why donut places close at noon. If I'm a bit more specific and ask "When does Rocket Donuts close?", the top result is, helpfully, their home page. I then click the result and look around the page for their hours, and finally find them at the bottom of the screen. Then I have to remember what day it is, what time it is, and subtract that from the appropriate number.

I also don't have much information about how current their information is, even though the web server helpfully responds that the page was last updated around noon on April 2nd.

One approach would be the so-called "Semantic Web", but I believe getting a majority of unsophisticated web publishers to reliably include semantic information is a fool's errand.

What's really missing is a way to index the web not by text, but by a machine's best guess at the interpretation of the of the text. Basically index a bunch of "facts" on the web, including who is claiming that they're true, and how long ago they made that claim. So the "key" would be something like "Rocket Donuts, Bellingham, WA, USA: Closing time on Thursday" and you would get a bunch of results, but you would sort by authority (something like PageRank) and recency (both descending). Hopefully the top value would be "5:00PM PDT".

Obviously one does not simply walk in and solve this kind of problem, but I believe whoever does would have a shot at replacing "search" as we know it.

Re: Why I hate search

#69
I think search can be done better. But I don't see a replacement for search. Even when we think, we perform a search in our mind to return the answer. It is far quicker to type into Google "who is the main character in 1984", than to go to a database(dmoz) and click books, then click 'numbers' then find 1984 then click it. I don't know if there can be something quicker than search (of course if you had an answer immediately when you thought of a question, but that still requires a search). But I agree search can be done differently and in a way that is more organized and "semantic".

Re: Why I hate search

#70

This guy seems to forget that the reason Google won was because they actually presented search in a usable, non-intrusive way. They were the first company to do search _well_, providing good, reliable results, and also the first company not to surround their search box with a border full of ads. To me this makes his assertion, > There's no more reason to expect search breakthroughs from Google than there is to expect…

I don't think Google were the first to do search well - in my opinion that was DEC's AltaVista. But Altavista and the other keyword matchers suffered from the later pollution of their results by spammers and then compounded the problem by polluting their own search results with barely distinguishable adverts. We stopped trusting them. Google was giving better search results during their rise to prominence because Pag…

Altavista's search was fast. It was a showcase for DEC's 64 bit Alpha and Ultrix technologies, and the ability for the systems to place the entire search index in memory (as I recall).

The search syntax was also pretty advanced. You had parenthetical grouping, logical operators, and if I recall, the +/- include/exclude syntax originated with (or was at least used by) AV.

What AV wasn't was particularly relevant. You needed that advanced search syntax to be able to narrow down what you were looking for, and you still usually had to go through a few pages of results to find the right stuff.

When Google first hit public beta, it was immediately and compellingly superior to anyone else's search. I remember giving it a few tries, and switching within a matter of a week or so. It just gave me what I wanted.

It took a long time for anyone else to get off the "but we need to keep users on our pages for ad clicks" mindset, and by then it was too late.

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