Live data from Hacker News

Apple backs national right-to-repair bill, offering parts, manuals, and tools

arstechnica.com

141–150 of 165 posts

Re: Apple backs national right-to-repair bill, offering parts, manuals, and tools

#141
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So they can invest in developing a new product, release all the software, schematics, and firmware, and have a factory in China produce a perfect knock-off in a split second? Why develop anything new when copying someone else’s work is so much more lucrative? IMO the core of right to repair should be more focused on preventing anti-competitive artificial barriers to repair, not forcing companies to give away their se…

If it's a 'one-off' product, why should they care if someone copies it? And unless your product is covered under a patent (and even if it is), China's going to knock it off anyway.

[deleted]

Re: Apple backs national right-to-repair bill, offering parts, manuals, and tools

#142
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because corporations are not people.

Cooperations are made up of people, and the equivalence has been a useful and ubiquitous construct. Abandoning that in the context of morality is, to me, just an attempt to hand-wave the immoral decisions and actions made by the real people within these cooperations.

Corporations use people as their machinery, but they are not people and don't operate with the same motivations or intent as people.

If we're going to draw an equivalency between the two, then we should also take care to recognize that corporations are sociopaths.

Re: Apple backs national right-to-repair bill, offering parts, manuals, and tools

#143
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So they can invest in developing a new product, release all the software, schematics, and firmware, and have a factory in China produce a perfect knock-off in a split second? Why develop anything new when copying someone else’s work is so much more lucrative? IMO the core of right to repair should be more focused on preventing anti-competitive artificial barriers to repair, not forcing companies to give away their se…

If it's a 'one-off' product, why should they care if someone copies it? And unless your product is covered under a patent (and even if it is), China's going to knock it off anyway.

[deleted]

Re: Apple backs national right-to-repair bill, offering parts, manuals, and tools

#144

This bill needs to provide at least one of these things in order to not be a damp squib: - Electronic components. Most attempts to water down R2R specifically involve limiting the access provided to "assemblies" rather than individual chips. OEMs don't actually do component level repair[0], the labor costs are too high, so they make the consumer eat the cost of a logic board swap. Furthermore they don't want to have…

> Most attempts to water down R2R specifically involve limiting the access provided to "assemblies" rather than individual chips.

This is how the automotive industry has managed 3rd party repairability, and it’s served them well. It’s almost less about the parts themselves (gears/shafts/bearings can measured and machined and fasteners can generally be found off the shelf), and more about the the components not having interchange part numbers, or official service manuals with torque specifications. It’s an entire market separate from official channels of part acquisition.

I’m dealing with a consequence of an “assembly” now. I have a GTI with VW/Audi 6-speed manual transmission of type 02Q. If you looked at all VW/Audi vehicles with a standard/manual over the last 25 years, it’s going to be a 02M, 02Q, or 0FB - all of these sharing roughly 80% of their parts with one another. But, it’s an assembly, so you cannot find individual replacement gears, pinion bearings, synchro rings, shift forks, etc from OEM, everything is aftermarket. If you’re having transmission problems that cannot be fixed with new seals, input bearings, sensors, or fluid change, you need to get a whole new transmission according to VAG.

My first gear synchro ring is busted and instead of buying $40 3-inch diameter piece of stamped brass, VAG wants me to drop $5000+ for the part. The labor would be less for the swap than doing the repair, but they would rather make me spend money on the part so they can sell the old one to a remanufacturing company and they can sell me the trans for $3000. I can go to a salvage yard and get one for $400 or pick and pull (and hate myself for trying to wrestle it out) for $250.

Re: Apple backs national right-to-repair bill, offering parts, manuals, and tools

#145
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Touche. Does this refute my claim that Apple can reconcile their current DRM scheme with users that want to repair their hardware themselves, though?

I would say that, given the particular set of solutions Apple has used to stamp out this pickpocket-to-chop-shop pipeline, the way for "Apple [to] reconcile their current DRM scheme with users that want to repair their hardware themselves" looks exactly like what Apple have implemented: A scheme where individuals can repair phones, but where every user who wants to order non-device-bound replacement parts must first…

Well again, now you're conflating two separate things. As I've demonstrated before, there are legal repairs with non-stolen parts that Apple would prevent today. Apple considers those repairs wrongful, because they do not include brand-new OEM components or allow the user to designate that a handset can be used for repairs. This is an arbitrary decision, made by them, and justified by a non-technical, unrelated reason.

That is wrong. The Shenzhen boogeyman can be dealt with in ways that don't give Apple the de-facto iron fist over repairs. This is an obvious, bald-faced power grab no different than using terrorism to explain why encryption is a bad technology. Any reasonable jury would conclude that the value of monopolizing your second-hand supply chain far exceeds any profit recouped from snuffing out chop-shop iPhones.

Re: Apple backs national right-to-repair bill, offering parts, manuals, and tools

#146

Please don't attach any morals to this because there aren't any. This is just another step in a long string of similar announcements and "actions" from Apple to gather ammo against lawsuits and new bills, delay or buy any good will they can get regarding this matter. It's appears they are convinced some meaningful part of the "Right to Repair" can't be stopped and of course as competent strategists they are, Apple ca…

They still have their hostile parts pairing.

Parts pairing isn’t inherently bad but it could be done in a way that is consumer friendly. Are you seriously telling me that apple can release the iCloud lock on the phone when you go to sell it but they can’t release the lock on the parts? It’s that simple. Tether the iCloud lock to the parts themselves. If I have findmy turned on and the parts are harvested they are completely useless, they simply won’t work at all. If I have it turned off they work perfectly.

This is arguably a superior system to the current one where the parts can be harvested from an iCloud locked phone and they kind of work. I can harvest a screen from an iCloud locked iPhone 15 today and it will still work. The faceid won’t work, the true tone won’t work, the front camera won’t work, and the auto brightness won’t work, but night shift will work and the screen itself will work.

And frankly as someone who does repairs as a side job it is a matter of time until the parts pairing is circumvented in some way. It likely won’t be easy and will require a sketchy $2-400 box from china along with very good microsoldering skills to move whatever bga nand ic apple has on the lcd flex to the replacement. But they’ve cracked it for every other iPhone to date including the 14 pro max. A lot of repair shops won’t do that because the hardware is pricey and the skills required are pretty intense.

This is a regulatory failure imo. I am 100% sure if apple had their way once you signed into iCloud the phone would be forever linked to you. The only reason that is not the case is because the first sale doctrine says we (in America at least) have a right to resell the things we buy. But that doesn’t explicitly say anything about the individual components of the things we buy and that hasn’t been legally tested afaik so here we are. Or maybe I’m wrong here, I’m not a lawyer at all

And that doesn’t touch upon their supply chain hostility. I do repair as a side business so I don’t really mess with phones much because I don’t want to do lcd swaps all day. I have a day job and really just want stuff I can do 1-3 nights a week and maybe on the weekend and more of the diagnosis and microsoldering work that I find challenging and enjoyable. As a result I do laptops and consoles a lot more. MacBooks are frustrating because there are several situations in which I simply cannot get chips.

Apple buys them all? Or forces TI or whoever to not sell them to digikey/mouser/etc. LCD panels are the same. This is more complicated and gets into the complexity of oem vs 3rd party which may not be economically feasible anymore with modern electronics fabrication. So then should there be regulatory requirements that apple or Samsung or whoever can’t control 100% of a certain chip, lcd panel, whatever so that I as an independent entity can still provide cheap component level repairs of your MacBook?

Sigh. The sad part is this industry will likely be obsolete in 5-10 years (the idea of component level repairs kind of already is) but it doesn’t have to be. This isn’t an “automation made my job obsolete” situation. This is a “powerful companies don’t like a lack of control” situation. As a result, we lose an industry that could potentially create a lot of local small business and jobs. It’s okay, apple and Samsung need that money more anyway I guess

Re: Apple backs national right-to-repair bill, offering parts, manuals, and tools

#147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what set the context: > This is the way to think about all businesses. Even if they’ve been making your favourite products for years, never forget that they’re just here to make money. > People who attach morals, norms, and emotions to businesses are falling into the marketing trap. and my point is that not all small business are just here to make money, ie that morals and emotions may be relevant to them. I'…

> If your point is saying that, to small business owners, money may be exachanged for immaterial things like tradition and satisfsction, then we are in agreement! ' Owners of all businesses, no matter how large or small, use the value generated from the business to trade it for things like tradition and satisfaction that is to their personal taste, yes. There is nothing special about small businesses here. In fact, i…

We're talking in circles.

Re: Apple backs national right-to-repair bill, offering parts, manuals, and tools

#148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If your point is saying that, to small business owners, money may be exachanged for immaterial things like tradition and satisfsction, then we are in agreement! ' Owners of all businesses, no matter how large or small, use the value generated from the business to trade it for things like tradition and satisfaction that is to their personal taste, yes. There is nothing special about small businesses here. In fact, i…

We're talking in circles.

No. We've never wavered from the original talk.

Re: Apple backs national right-to-repair bill, offering parts, manuals, and tools

#149

Please don't attach any morals to this because there aren't any. This is just another step in a long string of similar announcements and "actions" from Apple to gather ammo against lawsuits and new bills, delay or buy any good will they can get regarding this matter. It's appears they are convinced some meaningful part of the "Right to Repair" can't be stopped and of course as competent strategists they are, Apple ca…

They still have their hostile parts pairing. Parts pairing isn’t inherently bad but it could be done in a way that is consumer friendly. Are you seriously telling me that apple can release the iCloud lock on the phone when you go to sell it but they can’t release the lock on the parts? It’s that simple. Tether the iCloud lock to the parts themselves. If I have findmy turned on and the parts are harvested they are com…

Hopefully such hostile practices from apple and other companies will end. Everybody agrees it's bad. They have absolutely no reason to be allowed to continue doing part pairing and making components unavailable. It's evil for consumers and for nature as well.

Re: Apple backs national right-to-repair bill, offering parts, manuals, and tools

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its not tacit acceptance. Corps are amoral and always looking out for their bottom line. If that just so happens to mean they align with what the people want then good. And if it doesn't then its on the people to pressure politicians to change the laws and regulations to incentive they do and punish they don't. Cynicism over corps lacking no morals will get you nowhere. They don't and wont. So instead of complaining…

If I, as a human, only make decisions that are in my best interest regardless of their harm on others, you would not call me amoral. You’d call me immoral. Why does this standard not apply to cooperations?

Another way of viewing "corporations are not people" is the principle, in the American context, that the primary purpose of an organization is maximizing shareholder returns, and more broadly in the interest of shareholders first and foremost (the second of which I think is established legal doctrine in quite a few American states.)

You can argue it's questionable from many perspectives – I can be a lot more unfiltered about this – but it tells you how specific of a context large American publicly traded companies work in. If that makes the idea of the large American publicly traded company problematic, that's a reasonable conclusion.

Post reply on HN