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Was Rust Worth It?

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Re: Was Rust Worth It?

#611

Post by estebank »

sgift wrote: post #402
throwawaaarrgh wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So only 1/5 of Rust code is unsafe? Isn't safety, like, the point of the language?

No, 1/5 of Rust code contains unsafe directly. Also, "the" point (in the area of safe/unsafe) is to manage unsafety and provide safe abstractions from unsafe foundations. If you go deep enough there's always something which will be unsafe (the type system would have to able to proof the whole universe otherwise), but most programmers will not have to write such code themselves (no, most of use do not write double-lin…

It could also be stated as "1/5 of crates interface with the OS, FFI, or hardware or use pointers for fancy data-structures".

Re: Was Rust Worth It?

#612

Post by fwip »

adastra22 wrote: post #250
fwip wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unison [1] has algebraic effects as a first-class feature. They call them "abilities" there. You can make async about as transparent/opaque as you want it. Docs on abilities in [2]. [1]: https://www.unison-lang.org/ [2]: https://www.unison-lang.org/learn/language-reference/abiliti...

Does anyone actually use unison in real life?

I don't know that anybody is running a company on it yet, no. They've got a couple big milestones coming down the pike, which might make it more attractive to people.

Re: Was Rust Worth It?

#613

Post by Capricorn2481 »

xhainingx wrote: post #295
adastra22 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is a common refrain in C++ testing: if it compiles then it's probably correct. I’ve heard this in Haskell and in Rust. I’ve never heard it applied to C++…

It's truer in C++ than java or similar languages ime since java relies more on exceptions, but it's certainly not as true as Haskell or rust

No it isn't lol. C++ compiles all the time with bugs.

Re: Was Rust Worth It?

#614

Post by estebank »

CGamesPlay wrote: post #415
estebank wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe this is in our radar and waiting on the new trait solver, but just in case if you have a repro I would appreciate a ticket to improve the diagnostic.

https://play.rust-lang.org/?version=stable&mode=debug&editio... In this case, the first two errors are clear. The next 3 provide multiple, redundant context blocks. The upshot is that this simple example results in rustc printing 11 lines of useful error messages and 86 lines of useless messages. Add to that the fact that the useful error messages need not be at the top or bottom of the error list, they can be anywhe…

That is a different problem than the one I thought you were seeing.

We do spend a lot of time trying to silence errors that are irrelevant. We also get a lot of complaints when fixing a single error produces a wave of new errors that were hidden due to failures in earlier stages. It's a balancing act.

Also, specific errors are verbose in order to give people a fighting chance to fix their issue. An error that is too verbose is annoying. An error that is too terse will leave users in the cold as to what the problem was. It's yet another balancing act.

I filed https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/117233 for you. Could I ask you why you didn't consider doing so when you first encountered this problem?

Edit: good news, from the next stable onwards the issue you saw no longer reproduces. You only get the parse errors with your case. https://play.rust-lang.org/?version=beta&mode=debug&edition=...

Re: Was Rust Worth It?

#615

Post by estebank »

Tade0 wrote: post #479
sunshowers wrote: post #79

Programming in Rust is really not like being in an abusive relationship. The compiler is trying to help out as much as possible, especially since rustc has the best error messages in the world.

Rust's compiler is the first one I've seen to use the word perhaps . My main gripe is that I still don't fully comprehend lifetimes and the compiler can't really help me every time, because it (understandably) errs on the side of caution.

Whenever you see weasel words like that, it means the compiler knows that the issue you encountered could be what it is saying but the necessary metadata to figure out for sure is inaccessible to it. It's the problem with classical stage-oriented compilers. A compiler designed for diagnostics from the beginning would end up looking like a plate of spaghetti where you can call type checking from the parser, to give an example.

Re: Was Rust Worth It?

#616

Post by yencabulator »

pjmlp wrote: post #527
rochak wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Go made a great decision to namespace packages via this Github style.

Go packages is yet another design item that I dislike on the language, exposing SCM URLs directly on the source code, and no story for binary caching.

> exposing SCM URLs directly on the source code

Incorrect. You're able to use any URL you control, regardless of where your SCM is located.

Re: Was Rust Worth It?

#617

Post by generichuman »

Const-me wrote: post #525
tkubacki wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to be .NET dev and don't agree. Couple of reaons: 1) Modern Java is almost as good as C# with some things I can't give up in Java (static imports => succint code, Groovy Spock => succint tests) 2) Kotlin is better than C# 3) JVM has much much bigger ecosystem (almost all the apache projects are JVM oriented) and default web framework is much less code to type (SpringBoot) is much more productiv 4) JVM has wide…

I think Java is only good for long-running servers. Java doesn’t support C interop. For many desktop and embedded projects this is a showstopper, here’s an example https://github.com/Const-me/Vrmac/tree/master/VrmacVideo That C# code directly consumes V4L2 and ASIO Linux kernel APIs, and calls unmanaged user-mode DLLs like libfdk-aac.so and liba52-0.7.4.so. Native stack and value types in C# reduce load on GC, and th…

Projects Panama & Valhalla seems to solve all your complaints:

> Java doesn’t support C interop. For many desktop and embedded projects this is a showstopper, here’s an example https://github.com/Const-me/Vrmac/tree/master/VrmacVideo That C# code directly consumes V4L2 and ASIO Linux kernel APIs, and calls unmanaged user-mode DLLs like libfdk-aac.so and liba52-0.7.4.so.

Part of Panama: check out the "Foreign Function & Memory API" [0]. The official docs [1] say it is a preview in 21 but it got stabilized in Java 22 (isn't out yet).

> Another thing missing in Java is intrinsics support, both scalar like popcnt, bitscan, BMI, etc., and SIMD like SSE and AVX.

Also part of Panama: see the "Vector API" JEP [2].

> Native stack and value types in C# reduce load on GC, and the number of complicated tricks required from JIT compiler. This in turn helps with startup performance. This is critical for command-line apps, and very desirable for desktop apps.

This is part of Project Valhalla [3], they're adding value types and actual generics, among other things.

That said, most of these are not done / not in a stable LTS Java release yet. We'll see how much better it'll be compared to C# (if at all) once they land.

[0] https://openjdk.org/jeps/454

[1] https://docs.oracle.com/en/java/javase/21/core/foreign-funct...

[2] https://openjdk.org/jeps/460

[3] https://openjdk.org/projects/valhalla/

Re: Was Rust Worth It?

#618

Post by PhilipRoman »

starlevel003 wrote: post #492
PhilipRoman wrote: post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that in Java it is merely a convention to use domain names as packages. There is no technical requirement to do so. So moving to a different domain has no impact whatsoever on dependency resolution. Many people use non-existent domain names. To be honest I really like how Java advocated for verbose namespaces. Library authors have this awful idea that their library is a special little snowflake that deserves the…

It may be a convention but in practice if you want to publish your package to Maven Central you need to prove ownership of your group ID domain. (Or ownership of your SCM account, which is in essence another domain).

Interesting, I contribute to a project that releases on Maven Central but the package name has never been registered as a domain.

Re: Was Rust Worth It?

#619

Post by Borg3 »

benibela wrote: post #536
leeman2016 wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

C# is a lovely language to work with. The only issue I have is with the .NET ... that is, building self-contained binaries to distribute. For comparison: * Hello World win-x64 binary self-contained in .NET 7 is around 70 MB * The same for Go results in 1.2 MB Edit: Missed 'trimming' in .NET, which would result in a binary of size around 11 MB in win-x64

I was making Windows 98 apps with Delphi 4, and they were 350 KB large And I was upset that they were so big. Sometimes I used UPX. Or I kicked out all Delphi GUI libraries, and created the GUI with the Win32 API calls directly. I got 50 KB Hello Worlds.

50kB hello worlds? Uhm.. thats still big.

15k May 3 2019 quickrun.exe*

Win32 GUI Application that spawns Window and ask for alias to run. Pure Win32 API, written in C (Mingw).

I literaly looled at 11MB hello world of .net or 1.2MB Go..

Re: Was Rust Worth It?

#620

Post by HKH2 »

Aerbil313 wrote: post #406
HKH2 wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Give me rusty bash. Bash with types (especially floats), fewer edge cases, functions with explicit parameters, simple command line flags...

Check out nushell, the Rust of the shells. I know it’s still not 1.0. Then just get fish. At least would save some keystrokes.

Fish is an easy alternative. Thanks.
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