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Was Rust Worth It?

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Re: Was Rust Worth It?

#541

Post by jamincan »

Zagitta wrote: post #37

"Programming in Rust is like being in an emotionally abusive relationship. Rust screams at you all day, every day, often about things that you would have considered perfectly normal in another life. Eventually, you get used to the tantrums. They become routine. You learn to walk the tightrope to avoid triggering the compiler’s temper. And just like in real life, those behavior changes stick with you forever." This is…

In general, the error messages are also nice and offer suggestions on how to fix the problem. Far from being yelled at, it's more akin to pair programming. "Try doing this..." "Did you mean to do this?"

Re: Was Rust Worth It?

#542

Post by andai »

>I also now get irrationally upset when I experience a runtime error.

Had this experience in my first Rust program. It turned out Rust had silently changed the types of some variables based on some code hundreds of lines later, which caused an overflow at runtime. Spooky action at a distance!

Re: Was Rust Worth It?

#543

Post by lucideer »

devman0 wrote: post #261
lolinder wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NPM added namespaces in version 2, which was released in Sep 2014, just 2 months before cargo was announced. I don't remember anyone making a big deal about using scopes in NPM for several years after that, it was just there as an option. The announcement blog post of v2 only gives two paragraphs to scoped packages and explicitly frames the feature as being for enterprises and private modules [0]: > The most prominen…

The left pad issue was kind of wild coming from the enterprise Java space. Supply chain attacks against open source software were already being taken pretty seriously, my last company had it's own Maven repository manager running that was used to stage and vet packages before they could be used in production.

> The left pad issue was kind of wild coming from the enterprise Java space.

This may be a little off topic for this comment thread but this is a little misrepresentative. Hosted private repos for enterprise weren't exclusive to Java at the time of left pad - anyone doing enterprise node likely had one for npm too & were probably well prepared for the attack. Such enterprise setups are expensive though (or at least take a level of internal resources many companies don't invest in) leaving the vast majority exposed to both js & java supply chain attacks even today.

Re: Was Rust Worth It?

#544

Post by rizky05 »

andai wrote: post #542

>I also now get irrationally upset when I experience a runtime error. Had this experience in my first Rust program. It turned out Rust had silently changed the types of some variables based on some code hundreds of lines later, which caused an overflow at runtime. Spooky action at a distance!

[dead]

Re: Was Rust Worth It?

#545

Post by tialaramex »

LegionMammal978 wrote: post #290
_gabe_ wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you give an example of non-C++ code that a modern compiler (MSVC, clang, g++ or something) successfully compiles with no diagnostics? I’m genuinely curious. If not, this just sounds like more C++ FUD because the spec doesn’t define everything under the sun and allows a certain amount of leeway to compilers for things like emitting different error diagnostics.

Consider: #define _FOO int main() {} Per the C++ standard ([lex.name]/3), this program is ill-formed: > In addition, some identifiers appearing as a token or preprocessing-token are reserved for use by C++ implementations and shall not be used otherwise; no diagnostic is required. [...] Each identifier that contains a double underscore __ or begins with an underscore followed by an uppercase letter is reserved to the…

Don't forget since C++ 20 all programs which rely on a concept but don't fulfill the (unchecked) semantic constraints of that concept are ill-formed. This allows C++ to truthfully say that C++ programs have the same properties as Rust programs in this regard, because although most real world C++ may fail those constraints and they aren't checked, as a result those aren't technically C++ programs at all so the fact they're broken and don't do what their programmers expected is magically not the fault of C++ even though the compiler seemed fine with it.

Re: Was Rust Worth It?

#546

Post by thecodedmessage »

pizza234 wrote: post #436
goku12 wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but the ergonomic is really bad. Every time I write some rust I feel limited. > But I do not think it is a good general purpose language. Remember that this is not a sentiment that's shared by everyone. I use Rust for tasks that need anything more complicated than a shell script. Even my window manager is controlled from a Rust program. I say this as someone who has been programming in Python for nearly two decades…

> At this point, I'm about as fast in Rust as I am in Python. This is factually impossible. For anything larger than (very) small programs, Rust requires an upfront design stage, due to ownership, that it's not required when developing in GC'ed languages. This is not even considering more local complexities, like data structures with cyclical references.

You know what slows me down in Python? The fact that you need to actually go down a code path to make sure you’ve spelled everything right.

But nothing that Rust does slows me down because I’m used to it.

Re: Was Rust Worth It?

#547

Post by tialaramex »

lmm wrote: post #181
tialaramex wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is surely something wonderful about the kind of C++ programmer who figures that, since their unusable broken garbage compiled it's probably correct. Remember unlike most languages you'd be familiar with C++ has IFNDR, which has been jokingly referred to as "False positives for the question: Is this a C++ program?". A conforming C++ compiler is forbidden from telling you in some† unknown number of cases that it…

> A conforming C++ compiler is forbidden from telling you in some† unknown number of cases that it suspects what you've written is nonsense, it just has to press on and output... something. It's not quite that bad - a conforming C++ compiler is permitted to error out and not compile the program. It just doesn't have to.

Many of the cases of IFNDR are semantic constraints, especially in C++ 20 and beyond. As a result of being semantic constraints it's generally impossible to diagnose this with no false positives. The ISO standard forbids such false positives so...

Re: Was Rust Worth It?

#548

Post by Ylmaz »

goku12 wrote: post #442
pizza234 wrote: post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At this point, I'm about as fast in Rust as I am in Python. This is factually impossible. For anything larger than (very) small programs, Rust requires an upfront design stage, due to ownership, that it's not required when developing in GC'ed languages. This is not even considering more local complexities, like data structures with cyclical references.

> This is factually impossible. How do you outright deny something as subjective as my personal experience? Besides, I'm not the only one in this discussion that made the same opinion. > For anything larger than (very) small programs, Rust requires an upfront design stage, due to ownership, that it's not required when developing in GC'ed languages. While GC'ed languages allow you to skip a proper initial design stage…

This is possible if you are really slow in python

Re: Was Rust Worth It?

#549

Post by Measter »

ilaksh wrote: post #113
dilippkumar wrote: post #84

> After two decades of JavaScript and decent experience with Go, this is the most significant source of frustration and friction with Rust. It’s not an insurmountable problem, but you must always be ready to deal with the async monster when it rears its head. In other languages, async is almost invisible. I am a former C and C++ programmer who lived calling into pthread almost every week for a decade. I use async rus…

The problem that I am running into at the moment is that a few things like the rhai Engine aren't Send and I am trying to use them in an async closure. What GPT-4 suggested was creating a tokio Runtime inside the thread and then block_on(). I will try it tomorrow. (This is the first significant Rust project for me.)

According to the documentation[0], enabling the "sync" feature should make the Engine Send+Sync.

From a quick look at the source, it looks like it switches between using Rc/RefCells and Arc/RwLock.

[0] https://docs.rs/rhai/1.16.2/rhai/#enable-special-functionali...

Re: Was Rust Worth It?

#550

Post by richbell »

xtremegoose wrote: post #458
dingi wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what's wrong with XML? Maven XML is a configuration not a programming language.

Is this a joke? XML is horrible to work with, more boilerplate than information. Compare your average maven file to a cargo.toml and tell me which is easier to work with...

"XML is more verbose" is a lazy criticism in the same veign as "Python is better than Java because you can do 'Hello World' in one line".

Maven files have a simple conventional structure and a defined schema. Once you learn it, it's a breeze to work with. It's not like you need to write hundreds of lines of SOAP or XLST — which is actually why people started to dislike XML, and not because XML inherently bad.

Edit: I'd also take XML over TOML any day, especially when it comes to nested objects and arrays.

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