wherein Larry Wall foresees the future: "I think when the new JavaScript engines come out we'll probably see renewed interest in a JavaScript backend." - December 6, 2007.
By "backend" he meant something to run Perl 6 on.
Programming is hard, let's go scripting..
71–80 of 96 posts
Re: Programming is hard, let's go scripting..
#72I'm a python programmer and this article really makes me interested in Perl. The only problem is that Perl 6 haven't shipped yet in more then 4 years since this article was written, have it?
If you're interested, skim through Modern Perl [0].I really like this description from this Amazon review [1]: "I had a hard time characterizing this wonderful book. It explains the fundamentals, but it's not an introductory book like Learning Perl. It covers almost every feature of the Perl 5 language, but it's not a reference book like Programming Perl. It explains common idioms, but it's not a guide to Perl 5 flue…
Re: Programming is hard, let's go scripting..
#73Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think pseudo-hashes were always marked as experimental, up until they were removed. That said, I'm pretty sure you're right that backwards Per 5 broke backwards compatibility with Perl 4 (and presumably 4 with 3, etc.)
From what I've read various places (but can't find a reference at the moment), the version bump from 3 to 4 was just to be able to have the Camel book coincide with a major version (i.e. "this book describes Perl 4" instead of "this book describes Perl 3.1.4.1.5" or whatever).
Re: Programming is hard, let's go scripting..
#74As a new programmer, should I wait for Perl 6, or just learn Perl 5, this article makes Perl 6 look quite compelling.
Learn Perl 5 if you want to learn how a full-featured, complete, and liberating-to-use programming language works.
Check out Perl 6 if you want to see what some of us are building, and if you value ideas as such, even when they haven't all been put together into a finished, polished product.
Re: Programming is hard, let's go scripting..
#75Earlier quoted context omitted.
I am going to neglect the responses 'Bullshit' basically because that means you don't have an answer at the moment. >> There isn't a single language in the world where the productivity gains are exponential over a long time - there might be some when you are a beginner which gets capped pretty fast. Sorry to ruin your party. But there are languages where there are exponential gains in productivity with time. Language…
> I am going to neglect the responses 'Bullshit' basically because that means you don't have an answer at the moment. Saying 'python feels like java' or 'exponential gains from switching language' is bullshit , and augmenting it with "calling it bullshit means you don't have an answer" is more bullshit. > But I can't convince that to people who can't look beyond 'readability matters' and consider that as the Pinnacle…
Re: Programming is hard, let's go scripting..
#76Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I am going to neglect the responses 'Bullshit' basically because that means you don't have an answer at the moment. Saying 'python feels like java' or 'exponential gains from switching language' is bullshit , and augmenting it with "calling it bullshit means you don't have an answer" is more bullshit. > But I can't convince that to people who can't look beyond 'readability matters' and consider that as the Pinnacle…
Sorry! I shouldn't have hurt your religion at the first place.
In place of spewing this nonsensical shit, you could have quoted me an example of "exponential gains".
Out of curiosity, have you actually programmed in Lisp or Haskell? I am not saying you have, I am not saying you haven't; it's just that people who claim "fuck yeah macros - now I am 100x more productive" are mostly people who haven't actually used them and are regurgitating blogosphere bullshit.
Re: Programming is hard, let's go scripting..
#77I'm a python programmer and this article really makes me interested in Perl. The only problem is that Perl 6 haven't shipped yet in more then 4 years since this article was written, have it?
Perl 5 has nothing to do with Perl 6 development or even releases. Even after Perl 6 is released Perl 5 will still continue to evolve and grow. At the moment Perl 6 specification gives a good evolution map for Perl 5 development. So you need not to have to ever worry about Perl 6. Perl 5 is a solid language in itself. Perl has been amazingly useful since almost 25 years now. And anybody who denies this is simply trol…
>And anybody who denies this is simply trolling.
Logical fallacy: Appeal to emotion. "My argument cannot be argued with because " is always a logical fallacy. "amazingly useful" is subjective, so of course it can be argued and doing so is not trolling but perfectly reasonable. Don't make claims you don't wish to back up.
>Its useful for almost anything to everything. From scripting, to application development, to prototyping to building reliable applications in any domain.
Logical fallacy: Misleading vividness. While what you say may be true, you've just described a programming language. There is nothing in this sales pitch that is perl specific.
>Perl adapts to nearly every programming paradigm out there.
This one is a better claim. The proper term is "multi-paradigm". Most (all?) Lisp dialects are also multi-paradigm, among various other languages.
>Its amazingly flexible, easy to learn and extensible.
"Amazingly flexible" is subjective. For example, a Smalltalk or Lisp programmer isn't going to be impressed (nor would programmers of Self, IO, etc., etc.).
Easy to learn can be tested to some degree and I believe you'll find the data against you. It would be an interesting to catalog the kinds of questions that get asked about the various languages. In my anecdotal experience, people start having problems with perl right at the beginning with e.g. how variables work.
Extensible is again "Misleading vividness". I can think of more languages that have a similar level of extensibility than those that do not.
>You also get to benefit from the community experience and knowledge accumulated over years.
Misleading vividness.
>You get the power of CPAN.
Overemphasized. Use a JVM-language (e.g. Clojure), for example, and you'll get the power of any open source JVM-language code ever written.
>There are also amazing resources to learn Perl.
Again, if you look at popular languages today there are few that wouldn't tick this box.
>Its a tool that you will never stop being in love with.
This claim is just ridiculous and wrong. I used perl professionally for over half a decade. At first I didn't care that much one way or the other. I was a C++ programmer and this was easier in some cases (but less flexible in other ways that I was used to exploiting). But as the years went on I grew to hate the language more and more until I just couldn't bare it anymore. I hated the backwards defaults (e.g. dynamic variables are fantastic. But as a default? wtf?), how ugly sigils look in code, the embarrassing "OO" syntax at the time and, one of the worst, how the community was constantly trying to prove they were relevant (obviously still the case). You could never mention Perl online or around Perl people without having to listen to the same tired tautologies about how incredibly powerful it is (wtf have you been using to think this?), etc.
So no, it's not a tool you'll never stop being in love with. This is the "Mind projection fallacy". You feel that way, but the vast sea of perl developers who abandoned ship for Python, Ruby, PHP, etc. obviously don't.
>Those of us who have used Perl and pushed its boundaries to get amazing stuff done over years, even now can't write down words to describe its greatness.
More "Misleading vividness". We all have stories like this in our favorite languages, but practitioners of other languages don't seem to feel compelled to post them anywhere and everywhere.
>We can only tell you how great it is, but when you see it yourself you will know it.
Appeal to mysticism. Sure we will.
>But the position of any new Perl programmer is enviable to say at the least.
Hah! If you had just said "Programmer" I would have found this an inspiring sentiment, but Perl programmer? No. I don't envy several months of "wtf" (e.g. the first time you figure out that your code accidentally applies ++ to a var that has a string in it and instead of crashing so you detect this immediately it does something with it).
Re: Programming is hard, let's go scripting..
#78Earlier quoted context omitted.
Perl 5 has nothing to do with Perl 6 development or even releases. Even after Perl 6 is released Perl 5 will still continue to evolve and grow. At the moment Perl 6 specification gives a good evolution map for Perl 5 development. So you need not to have to ever worry about Perl 6. Perl 5 is a solid language in itself. Perl has been amazingly useful since almost 25 years now. And anybody who denies this is simply trol…
I have hardly ever seen such high praise for a language. I guess I'll have to learn it sometime and see what the hoopla's about. With the Modern Perl book, of course, if it's still the best-of-breed then.
If you're looking for more batteries included then I'd suggest Python or perhaps Ruby. Things are always going on in those communities and they've made some great killer apps like Blender (python), Rails (Ruby), Django (Python) and countless more. These languages are just as flexible as Perl, though they have their strengths and weaknesses in different places than Perl does.
Re: Programming is hard, let's go scripting..
#79Earlier quoted context omitted.
Its a lovely quote, but I've used Perl, I know what it provides. I've also used lisp. I just think if you're going to make a claim you need to back it up with something solid.
I gave you the solid things, but you give 'You aint gonna need it' kind of answer to everything Python doesn't have. Coming to asking people forcefully shorten their code blocks. It's none of language's business to dictate its style on me and steal my freedom. A language is supposed to behave the way I want. That's its very purpose. No multiline lambdas, No CPAN equivalent, Seamless interaction with shell like $outpu…
if True:
x = 1
[copy the above line, paste it 999,998 times]
x = 1
print x
Python runs that and doesn't say anything about by block length; it just behaves the way I want and prints x (after a short pause). What are you talking about?Re: Programming is hard, let's go scripting..
#80Earlier quoted context omitted.
Do you have in mind a particular integration with the real world that is language-specific, but where DrScheme would not help a professional programmer ramp up familiarity with a Schemey way of doing it? I think I disagree with you, but have to understand what you're arguing to be sure.
Nope, I'm being more general. Throw darts at random programming ads. Take that job. Chances are, it will be something like "move QUUX formatted records from BAZ mainframe to new Oracle Windows Java 7.0 Lightweight Enterprise Server", rather than "start completely anew to help elementary school students learn calculus". Things like ad-hoc record parsing and network connectivity and the ability to easily fork() end up…
http://planet.racket-lang.org/package-source/ryanc/db.plt/1/...