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The City of Seattle accidentally gave me 32M emails for $40 (2018)

mchap.io

221–230 of 230 posts

Re: The City of Seattle accidentally gave me 32M emails for $40 (2018)

#221
post #130

> This isn't something I'm even remotely cool with, so we ended the call a couple minutes later, and agreed to have our lawyers speak going forward. ... After that call, I asked my lawyer to reach out to their lawyer and was pretty much told that Seattle was approaching the problem as if they were pursuing Computer Fraud And Abuse (CFAA) charges. For information that they sent. Jiminey Cricket.. Not addressing the ma…

I'd think it's pretty common. It's not necessarily "on-call" as in "waiting for you", but depending on what you do, you end up having contact with different lawyers in different areas. And in doubt, it's better to stick with someone knowing your situation.

Like, I had a few issues with the last place I rented, and during that, I entered the Mieterschutzbund, an association for tenant protection. Through this, I can get access to an hour of consulting with an expert from the association as well as one or two hours of a lawyer specializing in tenant laws. This doesn't take much longer than 1-2 days. So I guess I have a tenancy lawyer on call.

Re: The City of Seattle accidentally gave me 32M emails for $40 (2018)

#222
post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your Seattle exchange makes perfect sense when you connect the people and the tech. You're using web3 thinking to interface with people using web2 tools to manipulate web1 software reading data from web0 systems. Sending and receiving info through this system is sometimes literally a game of telephone, but the translation steps will be set in stone. E.g. Your email sent to IT was routed, unread, to another department…

What is the web3 thinking?

Running out of funding for duplicative small ideas.

Re: The City of Seattle accidentally gave me 32M emails for $40 (2018)

#223
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing to consider is that 'government' literally constantly advertises the opportunity for you to get credentials to their system and prepare documents themselves. They will pay you to do this. > So yours (and many others in your position)'s clear desire to think of us as adversaries rather than simply people who want to know what the fuck is going on is blinding your vision. Yea, I don't work in his position or…

Maybe. But again, please try to view it as an expression of years and years of frustration. The stakes are high with this shit. When we are denied access to records, the implications are often as serious as literal deaths, sexual violence, and systemic abuse of millions of people. I highly recommend you read this (shameless plug), which shows just a sliver of the nonsense that we have to deal with: https://southsidew…

I am familiar with the system and many serious problems with it. Some people who want to fix things about government go work there. You are complaining that they think of you as an adversary, but it's clear that you are thinking of government employees as adversaries, who have been frustrating you for years, and at least sometimes you're clearly being a dick about it.

Re: The City of Seattle accidentally gave me 32M emails for $40 (2018)

#224
post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, they aren't. 'They', being the people whose email addresses are being released, includes everyone who emails or receives an email from a government official . Thought you'd like to receive updates on the construction outside your house by email? Now it includes you.

Yes, they are. Virtually every consequential interaction you have with the government ends up as part of the public record. You don’t have to do that via email, and if email is convenient then having two email addresses is not that difficult. There are well–known exceptions, such as library borrowing records, which are exempt and have been since long before email addresses were invented.

You said these are government employees

I pointed out that no, it includes the non-employees who interact with the government.

You answer...they don't have to use email, therefore everyone who does is a government employee?

No.

Re: The City of Seattle accidentally gave me 32M emails for $40 (2018)

#225
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This person is doing the dirty ground work of protecting our rights, and incurring legal fees because of it. The entitled prima donnas are the public employees of Seattle that seem to have the attitude that they shouldn't be bothered to do their jobs properly.

If this is your attitude, I hope there are people in your line of work that make it their personal hobby to bait you into getting you fired like this guy did. What this is is pure scumbaggery using the guise of public service. It's akin to those "first amendment auditors" on YouTube.

[deleted]

Re: The City of Seattle accidentally gave me 32M emails for $40 (2018)

#226
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This person is doing the dirty ground work of protecting our rights, and incurring legal fees because of it. The entitled prima donnas are the public employees of Seattle that seem to have the attitude that they shouldn't be bothered to do their jobs properly.

If this is your attitude, I hope there are people in your line of work that make it their personal hobby to bait you into getting you fired like this guy did. What this is is pure scumbaggery using the guise of public service. It's akin to those "first amendment auditors" on YouTube.

He's not trying to bait anyone to loose their job.

He's trying to ensure that governments have processes in place to quickly and effectively serve citizens according to the law.

I actually expect them to serve us with a smile and good manners not unlike the courtesy expected from the good folks at any Chick-Fillet.

Re: The City of Seattle accidentally gave me 32M emails for $40 (2018)

#227
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe. But again, please try to view it as an expression of years and years of frustration. The stakes are high with this shit. When we are denied access to records, the implications are often as serious as literal deaths, sexual violence, and systemic abuse of millions of people. I highly recommend you read this (shameless plug), which shows just a sliver of the nonsense that we have to deal with: https://southsidew…

I am familiar with the system and many serious problems with it. Some people who want to fix things about government go work there. You are complaining that they think of you as an adversary, but it's clear that you are thinking of government employees as adversaries, who have been frustrating you for years, and at least sometimes you're clearly being a dick about it.

You're attributing way more malice than I think is warranted. Take a breath, friend. I've been largely calm and collected in this conversation, but you've (ironically) raised this to a higher adversarial point. I have no ill will towards you.

Funny enough, I tried to get a gov job recently. A chief data officer job in a niche group which I think I'd do a damn good job at. They denied me immediately because I don't have a degree, despite my qualifications. So yeah, I actually agree to a point that joining gov can be a way to 'fix things'... but, welp?

But even further, I have tried working with gov agencies on issues I've felt deep anguish towards. In late 2019 I did a significant amount of free data analysis of Chicago's parking tickets for the Chicago mayor's office to show how excessive ticketing can be. They reached out to me, they said they loved the work, but did shit-all with it. Later that year, the mayor ended up doing a 180 on the desire to have more-just ticketing policies. A month after I gave them that analysis, in a FOIA lawsuit trial, the city's counsel threw me under the bus by arguing that my end goal in that litigation is to gain access to their data so that I can modify it. Completely baseless argument that actively ignored that I put significant effort in trying to help with the highest office of the city. For free. So dude? I've fucking tried. In the end the city acted (and acts!) like a bully for the sole purpose of winning their cases. When that's the standard of behavior we receive, it's a damn wonder we even try to make any intentional effort to be kind.

Also, when I've been told over the phone and email countless times, "we are not obligated to answer questions under the law"... even for the most basic of things.. it's pretty clear where the disconnect is.

I could go on with these stories, but since it really sounds like you didn't read the article I shared -- please do, and you might better see where many of us are coming from.

Re: The City of Seattle accidentally gave me 32M emails for $40 (2018)

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If this is your attitude, I hope there are people in your line of work that make it their personal hobby to bait you into getting you fired like this guy did. What this is is pure scumbaggery using the guise of public service. It's akin to those "first amendment auditors" on YouTube.

He's not trying to bait anyone to loose their job. He's trying to ensure that governments have processes in place to quickly and effectively serve citizens according to the law. I actually expect them to serve us with a smile and good manners not unlike the courtesy expected from the good folks at any Chick-Fillet.

[deleted]

Re: The City of Seattle accidentally gave me 32M emails for $40 (2018)

#229
post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, they are. Virtually every consequential interaction you have with the government ends up as part of the public record. You don’t have to do that via email, and if email is convenient then having two email addresses is not that difficult. There are well–known exceptions, such as library borrowing records, which are exempt and have been since long before email addresses were invented.

You said these are government employees I pointed out that no, it includes the non-employees who interact with the government. You answer...they don't have to use email, therefore everyone who does is a government employee? No.

No, you misunderstood. Perhaps I stated it poorly.

My statement is that every interaction with local government in the US generates a public record. This is true even when email is not involved. For example, let’s say that you have purchased a property. The deed is registered with a county government. The tax assessor decides how much property tax you will owe. They record whether you have actually paid that tax or not. All of these records are public information, and there is very little concession to privacy. In the US, there is no expectation of privacy around these records. Anyone in the US can look up these records for any property at all, and your name is there for all to see. The amount you paid for the property is there for all to see, and so on. Your phone number and email address would be there too, except for the fact that they don’t collect or store that information. They don’t need too, because they always do business with you by mail. These days you can also use their website to pay your property tax, or to look up information about a property you are interested in, but that is ancillary.

The same holds true for almost all other ways that you might interact with the government. Building permits and inspections are public records. Arrest warrants are open. Trial records. Water bills are public records, if the water is provided by a utility owned and operated by the government (varies from place to place). Drivers licensing is almost entirely open. Vehicle registration. Bids on providing goods and services to the government are only sealed for a short time; once the winning bidder is selected all of them become public records. All of this is business as usual in the US.

Finally, all of the official communications of government employees and elected officials, whether internal to a government department or not, are public records. That means that if you talk to a mayor, whether by phone or by email or by written letter, and the mayor is acting in an official capacity, then the entirety of your communication is a public record. That includes the type of communication, how it was delivered, your phone number, your email address, etc. All of it is to be recorded and made available to the public upon request.

Of course public records may contain information that is not public. When a member of the public requests a public record, such non–public information should be redacted from the copy that they receive. That includes things like credit card numbers and social–security numbers, but not necessarily phone numbers or email addresses. Especially not the phone numbers or email addresses of the parties to the communication. Maybe it’s different where you’re from, but here those are important parts of the public record. If you want to talk to the mayor but don’t want your email address to become part of the public record, then don’t talk to the mayor via email! Write a letter instead.

Re: The City of Seattle accidentally gave me 32M emails for $40 (2018)

#230

Argh. I used to work a lot in open data, including a stint within the open data department of a major city government. This kind of behaviour does nothing to advance the cause. It just perpetuates the belief that open data and FOI are massive waste of time and resources and open legal risks for no good reason. I'm also pretty surprised that people think email metadata from government is legitimate open data. Do you t…

> I'm also pretty surprised that people think email metadata from government is legitimate open data. Do you think it should be public how many times you have emailed government and gotten a response, and to which departments? I don't.

In Sweden, when you contact the government by web form or mail, they warn you that every communication is by law part of the public record (metadata and contents), and you should not include anything sensitive that you do not want divulged.

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