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Cloudflare API, dashboard, tunnels down

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Re: Cloudflare API, dashboard, tunnels down

#31
post #24
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Operating at scale is hard. However the internet doesn't require people to "operate at scale". That's the beauty. It's a mash of different (relatively) small autonomous systems, with many hosts. If any host goes down, or any network goes down, the system ignores it, or reroutes it.

In practice, cloudflare or AWS down means half the internet doesn't work at all. The half that works - routing around problematic networks - isn't very helpful when the problematic networks are the useful ones.

Depends what you want to get to. HN doesn't use any centralised services.

If someone chooses to host their service relying on a single unreliable point of failure that's on them. Plenty more hosts on the web.

Re: Cloudflare API, dashboard, tunnels down

#32
post #20
post #14

If you’re waiting for the inevitable “this is why we shouldn't centralize everything”; this is that comment. As much as I like cloudflare and easy to use stuff, lets be a little bit mindful of the blast radius of highly centralized services which are even more complex to operate due to the scale of the deployment and problem scope. luckily this time its just administrative interfaces and supplemental services that as…

Operating at scale is hard. However the internet doesn't require people to "operate at scale". That's the beauty. It's a mash of different (relatively) small autonomous systems, with many hosts. If any host goes down, or any network goes down, the system ignores it, or reroutes it.

> However the internet doesn't require people to "operate at scale".

The internet itself does not, yes, but the internet as a system, filled to the brim with bad actors ranging from 14 year old skiddies with Metasploit over hardened Russian ransomware groups to virtually all nations' secret services and militaries does.

As soon as you start a server with a globally routed IP address, it will get hammered from all kinds of scanners. Anything on port 80/443 will get bombarded with Wordpress, Drupal and log4j attempts, anything on port 22 will get hounded by people attempting credential stuffing, and anything on port 25/587 by spammers and anyone trying to exploit Exchange/Exim vulnerabilities. It's a nightmare to keep up with that crap alone, and you're one forgotten update away from getting your server 0wned by someone using Shodan and whatnot.

And then, once your site, whatever you operate - I've seen as an admin DDoS extortion attacks happen against small sites for dog walker services, pizza parlors or random bloggers as well as large car dealerships - finds itself some opponent for whatever reason, it gets nasty. Be it for political reasons (people don't like what the blogger writes), for the lulz (people don't like a Twitch streamer so they DDoS their sponsors), or for financial extortion, doesn't matter in a time where you can order such attacks for less than the price of your average McDonalds visit. There is no, utterly no, alternative to the giants (Cloudflare, AWS CloudFront, Akamai).

It's sad that it has come to that point, but unless we get the most obnoxious sources of such attacks - enemy nation states (China, Russia) and compromised domestic IoT devices/servers - off of the Internet, there is really no viable alternative.

Re: Cloudflare API, dashboard, tunnels down

#33
post #10

Tunnels work until you restart them

This feels like data and control planes being at least somewhat separated.

As a general rule, Cloudflare hot paths (CDN, etc.) tend to still work during an API outage. Communication between the API servers and the hot paths are mostly async, and (usually) work fine independently.

Re: Cloudflare API, dashboard, tunnels down

#34
post #14

If you’re waiting for the inevitable “this is why we shouldn't centralize everything”; this is that comment. As much as I like cloudflare and easy to use stuff, lets be a little bit mindful of the blast radius of highly centralized services which are even more complex to operate due to the scale of the deployment and problem scope. luckily this time its just administrative interfaces and supplemental services that as…

[deleted]

Re: Cloudflare API, dashboard, tunnels down

#35
post #14

If you’re waiting for the inevitable “this is why we shouldn't centralize everything”; this is that comment. As much as I like cloudflare and easy to use stuff, lets be a little bit mindful of the blast radius of highly centralized services which are even more complex to operate due to the scale of the deployment and problem scope. luckily this time its just administrative interfaces and supplemental services that as…

The current situation is preferable to the before times, where any website could be nuked from orbit by anyone with a mild grievance. Cloudflare has succeeded in effectively shutting down that attack vector, and that’s worth the risk of occasional brief but broad outages, at least to me.

Re: Cloudflare API, dashboard, tunnels down

#37
post #31
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In practice, cloudflare or AWS down means half the internet doesn't work at all. The half that works - routing around problematic networks - isn't very helpful when the problematic networks are the useful ones.

Depends what you want to get to. HN doesn't use any centralised services. If someone chooses to host their service relying on a single unreliable point of failure that's on them. Plenty more hosts on the web.

Isn't HN centralized on like two servers in CA?

Re: Cloudflare API, dashboard, tunnels down

#39
post #14

If you’re waiting for the inevitable “this is why we shouldn't centralize everything”; this is that comment. As much as I like cloudflare and easy to use stuff, lets be a little bit mindful of the blast radius of highly centralized services which are even more complex to operate due to the scale of the deployment and problem scope. luckily this time its just administrative interfaces and supplemental services that as…

If you think internet infrastructure is centralized, boy are you going to be depressed about AI powered services.

Those are much more volatile (compute heavy and not enough compute to meet peaks), harder to setup/maintain and benefit greatly from sharing infrastructure for hardware utilization. Everything is moving in that direction.

Re: Cloudflare API, dashboard, tunnels down

#40
post #14

If you’re waiting for the inevitable “this is why we shouldn't centralize everything”; this is that comment. As much as I like cloudflare and easy to use stuff, lets be a little bit mindful of the blast radius of highly centralized services which are even more complex to operate due to the scale of the deployment and problem scope. luckily this time its just administrative interfaces and supplemental services that as…

the inevitable

It's readily evitable, just choose not to write the generic, repetitive thing you already know is generic and repetitive.

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