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Psychedelic Mushrooms Hit the Market in Oregon

nytimes.com

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Re: Psychedelic Mushrooms Hit the Market in Oregon

#141

Post by stcroixx »

davmre wrote: post #19
swalling wrote: post #3

What's missing from this article is that people are reaching for this because the standard medical treatment for these disorders, SSRIs, are pretty terrible. In the mild case, the common side effects are blunting of your emotions and sexual dysfunction. So you don't have panic attacks, but you live in a gray fog and your relationships suffer. In the worst case, they cause suicidal ideation. Psychedelics also have psy…

Counterpoint: SSRIs were transformative for my depression. Side effects were minor and manageable (eg, Wellbutrin worked well to prevent any sexual dysfunction). I was on them for several years and had no problem tapering off. My understanding is that this is a pretty typical experience. Rhetoric like this was actively harmful in dissuading me for years from trying what ended up being by far the most effective treatm…

Some cause permanent changes in the brain. No thanks.

Re: Psychedelic Mushrooms Hit the Market in Oregon

#142

Post by icepat »

stef25 wrote: post #140

One issue is that SSRI treatment has to be stopped before starting psychedelic therapy (interactions). This means tapering off until you're not being treated anymore, which takes weeks if not months, can be difficult and put the patient in a less than ideal state of mind, possibly even worse than when they started off. And this is a very bad state of mind to be in when starting psychedelics. I wonder how people usual…

While nobody should do this, the interaction risk between an SSRI and a classical psychedelic is low. The primary concerns are serotonin syndrome, which requires a dose far outside the level that a responsible practitioner would administer. That said, this does mean that if an error is made, the consequence is far more severe (ie: miligrams as opposed to micrograms in dosing LSD).

I have heard second-hand reports of users who tapered their SSRI treatment, and on first exposure to psychedelics, had a severe negative response (to the point of re-traumatisation). So you're correct, this is exceptionally difficult to do correctly.

Re: Psychedelic Mushrooms Hit the Market in Oregon

#143

Post by wfvr »

pstuart wrote: post #51
BillyTheMage wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thousands of dollars? Sounds like a scam to me. Just have a friend babysit you like everyone else.

It's justified in the context that's been set up -- certification requires a lot of time and the license is big bucks too. Add to that the length of a trip would be many hours. Finding a friend to babysit is not always easy. I've got this crazy idea on setting up a cooperative to do something like that. Leverage existing guides from tripsitters.org and others. Develop protocol and legal indemnification, identify suit…

I've been thinking of the same thing, and I think the ideal thing would be to use the psychedelics as a sacrament in the context of a weekend-long initiation ritual. Participants would travel into a remote forested location and go through activities and rituals that would give meaning to the psychedelic experience, as well as rituals and activities with the objective of integrating the psychedelic experience into their day-to-day lives.

I have written out a bit of the experience, I can share it with you if you'd like. We're still in the planning phase.

Re: Psychedelic Mushrooms Hit the Market in Oregon

#144

Post by dlkf »

swalling wrote: post #3

What's missing from this article is that people are reaching for this because the standard medical treatment for these disorders, SSRIs, are pretty terrible. In the mild case, the common side effects are blunting of your emotions and sexual dysfunction. So you don't have panic attacks, but you live in a gray fog and your relationships suffer. In the worst case, they cause suicidal ideation. Psychedelics also have psy…

If you don’t quantify these things and perform cost-benefit analysis, it’s like saying we shouldn’t drive cars , because in the worst case you burn alive.

SSRI side effect prevalence is a hard thing to measure for a large variety of reasons. But in [1] only 1/4 patients report the side effects as ”very bothersome.” Given that 100% of patients are so anxious/depressed that they want to try psych meds, it seems like SSRIs are a great treatment option for many.

[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2719451/

Re: Psychedelic Mushrooms Hit the Market in Oregon

#145

Post by stef25 »

icepat wrote: post #142
stef25 wrote: post #140

One issue is that SSRI treatment has to be stopped before starting psychedelic therapy (interactions). This means tapering off until you're not being treated anymore, which takes weeks if not months, can be difficult and put the patient in a less than ideal state of mind, possibly even worse than when they started off. And this is a very bad state of mind to be in when starting psychedelics. I wonder how people usual…

While nobody should do this, the interaction risk between an SSRI and a classical psychedelic is low. The primary concerns are serotonin syndrome, which requires a dose far outside the level that a responsible practitioner would administer. That said, this does mean that if an error is made, the consequence is far more severe (ie: miligrams as opposed to micrograms in dosing LSD). I have heard second-hand reports of…

Yeah, which is why maybe these treatments are ok for people with relatively "mild" symptoms / disorders (like the guy in the article with "lingering ptsd"), people who aren't being aggressively treated with SSRIs.

That's the sad thing about those pills I guess, it's that you stay on them or you get better.

Re: Psychedelic Mushrooms Hit the Market in Oregon

#146

Post by zeroxfe »

hcks wrote: post #81
swalling wrote: post #3

What's missing from this article is that people are reaching for this because the standard medical treatment for these disorders, SSRIs, are pretty terrible. In the mild case, the common side effects are blunting of your emotions and sexual dysfunction. So you don't have panic attacks, but you live in a gray fog and your relationships suffer. In the worst case, they cause suicidal ideation. Psychedelics also have psy…

1/ please stop deterring people from undertaking the medical treatment recommended by professionals 2/ there is increasing evidence that psychedelic therapies for mental illness were all based on hype and don’t actually perform any better or at all

You are correct about (1), but "citation needed" for (2).

Psychedelic therapies are most definitely not based on hype -- there's real research being conducted by real doctors, and it's only becoming more prevalent.

[1] https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/psychiatry/research/psychede... [2] https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2206443

Re: Psychedelic Mushrooms Hit the Market in Oregon

#147

Post by ulrikrasmussen »

DiggyJohnson wrote: post #93
kykeonaut wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem here is that there is no evidence. All the evidence of negative effects so far is anecdotal, which in reality calls for more research in the area [0]. In addition, only about 0.2% report having sought emergency treatment [1] when using psylocibin. [0] https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal... [1] https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/02698811221084...

As someone who partakes in psychedelics to a moderate degree, I don’t think it makes any sense at all to dismiss the very many negative outcomes as “no evidence”. Perhaps it’s under-researched, but your comment strikes me as ideological and/or hyperbole. Like with all treatments, it’s a careful balance of whether the risks are worth the positive health outcomes. But there’s no sense in denying that psychedelics, and…

I think it is true that it is under-researched. Current clinical research on psychedelics exclude people who are previously diagnosed and/or have a family history of personality disorders, psychosis and bipolar depression. They also control for set and setting. Under those conditions, it seems that the use of psychedelics is very safe, but it doesn't give us a good idea of the risk of recreational use in the general public.

One interesting recent study I've found is this, but it's too small to conclude anything, and it also does not appear to be peer-reviewed yet: https://osf.io/preprints/psyarxiv/yzmcj

Re: Psychedelic Mushrooms Hit the Market in Oregon

#148

Post by u32480932048 »

nmarinov wrote: post #112
explaininjs wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(which, not-so-coincidentally, played a major role in all the above)

Could you elaborate? I'm trying to imagine how it relates from your short summary[1] but I'm confused how Aphantasia plays into that. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37995645

I think they're saying, somewhat facetiously, that they don't see dead people because they're aphantastic.

Phenomenologically, I'm not sure people typically "see" Jesus (Holy Spirit, et al) as much as perceive their presence or influence.

(I'd say the seeing dead people thing was a simple, bad-faith comment, but I believe it was Thomas Aquinas who made the "if you can't see it, it's because God didn't want you to see it" class of arguments regarding insensible phenomenon, so maybe it's actually a profound theological treatise they're working up.)

Re: Psychedelic Mushrooms Hit the Market in Oregon

#149

Post by ulrikrasmussen »

Etheryte wrote: post #121
Delokoloololo wrote: post #111

I still don't think we as a society are allowed to completly ban any drugs. A society might be allowed to have safety mechanism in place but otherwise nothing else.

While I see where you're coming from, how do you address the healthcare gap? I agree with personal freedom of choice and choosing your own risk tolerance, but as a society we collectively pay for the healthcare costs of those who fall through the cracks and go too far. This problem isn't unique to drugs in any way, we face the same problem with e.g. excessive alcohol use, and there the problem is also largely unsolve…

The thing is, there are many things that have a statistically similar or worse risk profile than many (not all, especially not highly addictive) drugs. Many contact sports, even wildly popular ones such as football and soccer, are associated with an increased risk of dementia. Horseback riding is also quite risky compared to the use of drugs. And then there are also all the extreme sports which are also not outlawed.

We could as a society outlaw anything and everything that would statistically burden our healthcare system, but in the end we would be living in a fairly boring world.

Re: Psychedelic Mushrooms Hit the Market in Oregon

#150

Post by icepat »

stef25 wrote: post #145
icepat wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While nobody should do this, the interaction risk between an SSRI and a classical psychedelic is low. The primary concerns are serotonin syndrome, which requires a dose far outside the level that a responsible practitioner would administer. That said, this does mean that if an error is made, the consequence is far more severe (ie: miligrams as opposed to micrograms in dosing LSD). I have heard second-hand reports of…

Yeah, which is why maybe these treatments are ok for people with relatively "mild" symptoms / disorders (like the guy in the article with "lingering ptsd"), people who aren't being aggressively treated with SSRIs. That's the sad thing about those pills I guess, it's that you stay on them or you get better.

In my experience with SSRI drugs, they mask the issue by blunting the emotional response itself. Much like removing a broken leg under aesthetic, rather than setting it and casting it.
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