In most species, males are more colorful than females - since they are the ones during the attraction. Our culture seem to have flipped this logic somehow
Great Male Renunciation
121–130 of 156 posts
Re: Great Male Renunciation
#122Just what % of the population actually wore those clothes back then? Are we comparing ourselves to what the 1% or 0.1% wore?
I don't think it matters quite so much how many; the question is more about what everyone wanted to be. What their aspirations were. The point would be that a mainstream man in 1750 wanted to be wearing colorful frilly things with high heels, even if he couldn't afford any of it because he was just a servant. Whereas starting in the 1800's, that stopped being an aspiration, whether you had money or not. Also, while t…
> The point would be that a mainstream man in 1750 wanted to be wearing colorful frilly things with high heels, even if he couldn't afford any of it because he was just a servant.
Though, if he was a _senior_ servant, he probably would be wearing some variant of it. There was a tendency for a while for high-ranking domestic servants in large houses to wear what was in effect a _previous version_ of what the upper class wore; AIUI this did indeed lead to a period where the upper class were wearing prototype modern suits while the butler was still wearing colours and frills.
Re: Great Male Renunciation
#123Earlier quoted context omitted.
On Paris...suits don't have the same cultural meaning, but baggy jumpers might not keep you out of trouble. I think muggers just smell the money and vulnerability. Local people also get mugged /pickpocketed in some circumstances, but in general they have a distinctly different way of moving through the city that makes strangers stand out.
>>distinctly different way of moving through the city Yeah, on a bycicle moving at 50 km/h across lanes.
You gotta give it to Parisians that they stand their ground on the car vs others battle.
One the factor that made it easier to accept Paris closing a bunch of streets to cars was that it was already an utter chaos and cars where crawling at peak hours. Biking was an actual fast option, and people sure did get the message.
Re: Great Male Renunciation
#124Just what % of the population actually wore those clothes back then? Are we comparing ourselves to what the 1% or 0.1% wore?
Depends on the period, but you're probably generally talking upper middle class to upper class (and to some extent their domestic servants). The working and agricultural class simply couldn't afford fashion.
If you read Samuel Pepys' Diary, from the mid-17th century (highly recommended; it's a fascinating view into the surprisingly familiar/alien world of the past), you'll notice that as Sam goes from a middle-class civil servant to the upper-middle-class (largely through taking bribes, as was the fashion at the time), he starts going on more and more about fabrics.
Re: Great Male Renunciation
#125Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't think it matters quite so much how many; the question is more about what everyone wanted to be. What their aspirations were. The point would be that a mainstream man in 1750 wanted to be wearing colorful frilly things with high heels, even if he couldn't afford any of it because he was just a servant. Whereas starting in the 1800's, that stopped being an aspiration, whether you had money or not. Also, while t…
the transition from powdered wigs being the norm and now those damn kids going out without a wig on took over must have been an interesting time. this means at some point there was like 1 guy that held on to the fashion at the very end. not yielding to the new norm for the sake of morals and civility! his wig buried with him. and then no more wigs
I mean, we've had a similar transition recently, with similar holdouts. See hats; they were basically essential wear in the west for men, from working class up, at the start of the 20th century; by the end, hats as male formal-wear were largely seen as pretty eccentric.
In the case of wigs, there were holdouts; barristers and judges in the former British empire have in many cases only really started abandoning them over the last two decades.
Re: Great Male Renunciation
#126Earlier quoted context omitted.
So what? TFA is not about the working class nor does it need to be. Why this fixation on comparing yourselves with the poor?
The article makes a lot of reference to class. Wigs, stockings and heels were associated with being of the aristocrat class. Which, as the article states, could make one wearing such things a target.
I think you're misreading that a bit (it is confusingly written).
> During the French Revolution, wearing dress associated with the royalist Ancien Régime made the wearer a target for the Jacobins. Working-class men of the era, many of whom were Revolutionaries, came to be known as sans-culottes because they could not afford silk breeches and wore less expensive pantaloons instead
_Prior_ to the revolution, the Jacobins (who were largely bourgeoisie) would have been wearing that dress, distinguishing themselves from the working class (who _didn't_ wear the stockings). The revolutionary period is being used to illustrate a change here, not the norm.
Re: Great Male Renunciation
#127Earlier quoted context omitted.
He's describing a well known formal attire etiquette: https://www.esquire.com/style/mens-fashion/advice/a33367/how...
> The two-button jacket should never have both buttons fastened. Sorry, why put two buttons on the jacket then?
You know the little pocket within a pocket that most jeans have, in this future year of 2023? It's for a _pocket watch_, originally. Fashion tends to lead to vestigial details hanging around more or less indefinitely.
Re: Great Male Renunciation
#128Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is a kind of theory that would apply equally to social signaling for both men and women. The linked article is talking about how there was an interesting phenomenon shifting men's clothing, but not women's.
All you need is that men didn't change, men had the same things in mind when choosing clothes hundreds of years ago as today. We see toady most men chooses clothes based on quality and utility. Why do you think men didn't do it back then? The main thing that changed was that back then high quality clothes were gaudy and colored, now they aren't.
> We see toady most men chooses clothes based on quality and utility.
Eh, no. They choose them based on fashion; it's just that the fashion has changed (and continues to change; suits are generally in decline, say, and I suspect covid has dealt a mortal blow to the tie).
Re: Great Male Renunciation
#129Earlier quoted context omitted.
> quality and utility Quality, perhaps. Utility ? I don't know. Has a dress shirt more utility than a t-shirt, or a business suit more utility than a knitted cardigan ? I think men still primarily aiming at looks and there's a lot of thoughts in the details, but not in the flamboyant and ultra expressive direction. I'd argue a lot of attention is paid to express restrain and non gay (in both the traditional and moder…
Men seems to care about uniforms, I think that is the primary way men care about looks. The name "uniform" explains why all suits looks the same, its because they are a uniform. Women doesn't seem to want uniforms, they want to look different from each other, so you see a wide range of dress styles for women.
> Men seems to care about uniforms, I think that is the primary way men care about looks. The name "uniform" explains why all suits looks the same, its because they are a uniform.
But most men don't wear suits anymore, or any sort of uniform. You seem to be trying to read this as something _innate_, but it is clearly fashion.
Re: Great Male Renunciation
#130Earlier quoted context omitted.
Don't English lawyers still wear the wigs?
Only silk lawyers (King’s Counsel) wear a wig
Court dress isn't based on seniority—it is based on which court you're in. If you're working in criminal practice, it's pretty routine. If you're doing civil or commercial work, it's not quite as frequent.
Current court dress guidance from the BSB: https://www.barcouncilethics.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/1...