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Children of married parents do better, but America is moving the other way

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Re: Children of married parents do better, but America is moving the other way

#111

Post by em-bee »

Retric wrote: post #2

Is it that marriage itself is beneficial or that people capable of maintaining a relationship make better parents? Divorce is significantly more common for bipolar, paranoid, and schizophrenic people for example. So I think we need to look at widows or something to control for those kinds of issues.

Divorce is significantly more common for bipolar, paranoid, and schizophrenic people for example

is that really a significant factor? i'd think that the number of people suffering from mental issues is a minority, and even if in their group are more divorces, those should only be a fraction of the total number of divorces.

Re: Children of married parents do better, but America is moving the other way

#112

Post by ghusto »

denton-scratch wrote: post #107

Marriage is a legal construct; it can provide a level of security (and fairness) that isn't otherwise accessible. But as the laws change, the benefits change too. I think men marry in the hope of binding their partner; fat chance. Marriage gives the partner a claim on a big chunk of the man's assets, so it incentivizes women to divorce their husbands. The great majority of divorces are initiated by the wife. I'm not…

It's mad, no? When I ask people point blank why they're getting married, they just stare at me. Obviously part of that is because I'm being autistically rude in asking such a questions, but I haven't heard any compelling answers either.

Re: Children of married parents do better, but America is moving the other way

#113

Post by lapcat »

nec4b wrote: post #92
lapcat wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I’m not defending wealth disparity; simply suggesting there’s likely another cause for the marriage-rate collapse. In the past that you're talking about, women were not allowed to be independent, i.e., own property or obtain jobs that could support a family. So women had little choice but to get married. As long as non-marriage is a realistic choice for women, the marriage rates will never be as high as they were w…

>> In the past that you're talking about, women were not allowed to be independent, i.e., own property or obtain jobs that could support a family. That is maybe half true or not true at all. Women could own property and could be somewhat independent. Queen Elisabeth owned a whole country in the 16th century. In general not only women but men as well had a duty to their families and had to do what their parents demand…

> Queen Elisabeth owned a whole country in the 16th century.

That's one women, and a strange example to cite, because my comment was in response to a discussion about the disparity of wealth ("kings and nobles had a similar wealth gap to their poorest married subjects as we see today between the 1% and the 99%). Obviously, queens have no trouble raising successful children, but that doesn't help anyone else in society. (It should be noted, however, that Elizabeth I was the so-called "Virgin Queen" who had no children.)

Re: Children of married parents do better, but America is moving the other way

#114

Post by otteromkram »

liquidpele wrote: post #57
Mayzie wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can’t survive or support a family with a single income these days.. It’s required for both partners to work.

To be fair, this is mostly a consequence of women entering the workforce. Not that that’s bad, but it’s an unintended consequence that companies were then able to convince workers to work for less because people could survive on it still.

"To be fair..."

If you leave this out of your response, do you believe that you're still conveying the same message?

I do.

Re: Children of married parents do better, but America is moving the other way

#115

Post by Retric »

danielschonfeld wrote: post #51
Retric wrote: post #2

Is it that marriage itself is beneficial or that people capable of maintaining a relationship make better parents? Divorce is significantly more common for bipolar, paranoid, and schizophrenic people for example. So I think we need to look at widows or something to control for those kinds of issues.

This question is answered in the interview. She is saying that a household with a stable long lasting relationship is what’s driving these better outcomes. She’s also saying that in America marriage (unfortunately) seems to be the only way to keep people together for a long while (long enough for a child to not experience a parade of parents by the time they are 15 according to the article). In my personal opinion. I…

Again, both parents in a stable long lasting relationship are capable of a stable long lasting relationship. Americans being bad at this doesn’t mean long term relationships are the sole difference, though they likely do provide some benefits it’s not the total difference in populations.

"I don't know exactly what it is about marriage, but it is a very practical matter," says Kearney, chafing at all the criticism. "If you just look in the data, marriage is what delivers kids a stable, long-term, two-parent household in this country."

The data is clear, however understanding the root causes is important because it impacts what approaches are most useful. If the relationships themselves are important the having a high school class in maintaining healthy relationship could be useful. If it’s the broader issues then we need to address those issues.

Re: Children of married parents do better, but America is moving the other way

#116

Post by em-bee »

jqpabc123 wrote: post #53

Proof that we need more "family values"; more religious conservatism? This is what a lot of people seem to believe --- people who've never bothered to look at the actual evidence --- or who refuse to accept it once they see. A detailed county by county survey of the entire country shows that the most religious and conservative parts of the country have higher divorces rates by far. Getting married in the Bible Belt a…

we do need more family values, but religious conservatism is not that. we also need equality between women and men, and that is where conservatism gets in the way. i suspect that lack of equality is what's driving most divorces in those conservative areas because women no longer allow themselves to be treated as being lesser than men, so they stand up for themselves and the conservative men can't handle that.

Re: Children of married parents do better, but America is moving the other way

#117

Post by 2devnull »

bequanna wrote: post #95
2devnull wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you live in an area with high international demand for housing? Not all of the US is a hot spot for high paid immigrants, yet. Displacement is a real thing. Not everyone can change states or nations to make the finances work out.

Luckily in the US you can choose to live wherever you want. If you’re priced out of a neighborhood, you can choose to live somewhere else. You can also choose how many and why type of cars to have, what food to eat, how much to spend on vacations, etc. Hell, you can even choose where and what you do for work! What a country! Many people will choose higher spending power with two incomes rather than take a step down t…

You are agreeing in a weird way. Yes, in America if you live somewhere that other people want to live, then you have to move or take on two incomes. That was my point, that because US real estate has become an attractive investment over the past decades and the growth and current size foreign capital outweighs the average American family’s purchasing power which results in: people resort to two incomes, wait to start families, have fewer children when they do have children, etc…

Re: Children of married parents do better, but America is moving the other way

#118

Post by Retric »

em-bee wrote: post #111
Retric wrote: post #2

Is it that marriage itself is beneficial or that people capable of maintaining a relationship make better parents? Divorce is significantly more common for bipolar, paranoid, and schizophrenic people for example. So I think we need to look at widows or something to control for those kinds of issues.

Divorce is significantly more common for bipolar, paranoid, and schizophrenic people for example is that really a significant factor? i'd think that the number of people suffering from mental issues is a minority, and even if in their group are more divorces, those should only be a fraction of the total number of divorces.

Yes, because either parent could have menial issues. Especially when you include things like gambling addiction which are also linked to divorce.

~2.8% of the population has bipolar disorder. The odds that one partner at the start of a relationship is bipolar should be ~5.6%. 1% of the population is schizophrenic so ~2% of the population. We aren’t quite up to 7.6% of relationships just from those 2 groups because there’s overlap but it does stack.

Granted I haven’t done the research to pin down exact numbers but higher rates of divorce operates in both directions. So stable couples are healthier than average and divorced couples are worse than average.

Re: Children of married parents do better, but America is moving the other way

#119

Post by em-bee »

pierat wrote: post #28
kibwen wrote: post #6

> Kearney says she's not advocating that children live in a household filled with marital tension or where parents are unhappy or mistreating each other. Then what is the proposed solution? Pointing out the problem is the easy part. But if you want more people to be married, and if they're currently choosing not to get married, then you need to either force them to get married against their will (institutionalized sh…

> Then what is the proposed solution? Pointing out the problem is the easy part. This is not a position paper. This paper is a finding of fact. Demanding that they must advocate something is an anathema to proper science. And, saying that "pointing out the problem is the easy part" indicates to me you're not in the sciences. It's laughable, even.

solving problems is just as important as finding them. the parent comment may be unfair for dismissing the finding of a problem as the easy part, but they are absolutely right in asking how do we solve this.

so let's be more constructive and explore possible solutions to this problem as well, and not just argue about the problem itself.

i do agree that the political landscape in the US makes addressing this problem difficult. the only option i see is to develop grassroots support for this issue by changing peoples opinions on the need to support parenting and having children.

Re: Children of married parents do better, but America is moving the other way

#120

Post by lapcat »

dietsche wrote: post #41
bloopernova wrote: post #5

America is moving the other way because all the wealth and power has been sucked up by the 0.1% and a large majority are too tired, stressed, and poor. Everything stems from this. Too much wealth tied up in the health insurance scam to switch to single payer, so people stay bound to their employment, and they can't afford time off or visits to the doctor because nothing is completely covered anymore. Too much wealth…

This argument is non sequitor. If wealth inequality was the problem, couples would be forced by economics to work together to bring in more together than they could separately and to share resources like housing to reduce costs.

From the article:

> many women don't marry the father of their child not because they reject the concept of marriage, but because they do not see him as a reliable source of economic security or stability.

If you think of marriage as purely a business partnership, would you go into business with someone who is unreliable?

It's better to be a sole proprietorship than have your entire business brought down by a bad partner, where both partners are liable for the bad partner's actions and decisions.

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