Live data from Hacker News

Cratering motor fuel sales in Norway show the death spiral that can end oil

electrek.co

51–60 of 217 posts

Re: Cratering motor fuel sales in Norway show the death spiral that can end oil

#51
post #34

Someone remind me again on the stats of battery toxicity and pollution vs fossil fuels? Also, is all of Norway energy produced by wind or solar? Or does this just move the tail pipe and introduce more toxic battery waste?

98% of the domestic needs are from renewable sources.

Re: Cratering motor fuel sales in Norway show the death spiral that can end oil

#52
post #34

Someone remind me again on the stats of battery toxicity and pollution vs fossil fuels? Also, is all of Norway energy produced by wind or solar? Or does this just move the tail pipe and introduce more toxic battery waste?

The vast majority of Norway's power is hydro power with some wind and solar. There's a single coal plant on Svalbard which is about to be shut down, and oil/gas is used mainly by the oil industry to generate power for their own use on-site. Though this is also being phased out in the future.

Re: Cratering motor fuel sales in Norway show the death spiral that can end oil

#53
post #34

Someone remind me again on the stats of battery toxicity and pollution vs fossil fuels? Also, is all of Norway energy produced by wind or solar? Or does this just move the tail pipe and introduce more toxic battery waste?

It's mostly hydro. Solar isn't worth it unless you like the concept because hydro is so cheap and there isn't much sun on average. When it rains a lot or there is windstorm in North Europe you can get paid to use electricity.

You can check the data on this website: https://app.electricitymaps.com/map

Re: Cratering motor fuel sales in Norway show the death spiral that can end oil

#54

30-40+/-% of refined oil is gasoline. So if you need to refine oil for jet fuel, heating oil, plastics, pavement and/or the 100s of other products we use everyday, then you are stuck with gasoline. Need to solve the 100s of other equally significant challenges as well.

It's 30-40% gasoline because that is what the refining process has been optimized to produce that. You can get other hydrocarbon mixes by choosing different process parameters.

Also, a huge part of oil refining is already shortening the chain lengths by adding hydrogen and "cracking" the hydrocarbon molecules [1]. They don't do that to gasoline at the moment because it has such a huge available market that it doesn't make economic sense to process it further. If that market disappears however then we absolutely would be able to convert "waste" gasoline further into jet fuel or plastics or whatever.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cracking_(chemistry)

Re: Cratering motor fuel sales in Norway show the death spiral that can end oil

#55

30-40+/-% of refined oil is gasoline. So if you need to refine oil for jet fuel, heating oil, plastics, pavement and/or the 100s of other products we use everyday, then you are stuck with gasoline. Need to solve the 100s of other equally significant challenges as well.

Well, you could at least burn them in centralized plants and get back a bunch of thermal efficiency. You can probably gain a bunch of processing efficiency too that way.

Re: Cratering motor fuel sales in Norway show the death spiral that can end oil

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not Norwegian, but lived there for 2 years, in multiple places from Narvik to Stavanager to Oslo to Trondheim. Population wise, Norway slots between Minnesota and South Carolina and is ~7.5x the mighty "city" of Alaska. It has a mainland latitude sweep of nearly 24 degrees, California covers 16 degrees of latitude. It's coastline is a mind boggling 51,748 miles. I can't find a good stat on total road network size, bu…

> As a Washington State resident, my biggest primary holdback with going all electric is the range reduction that occurs in winter months due to cold. From what I can tell, a substantial mitigating factor is if you can garage your vehicle.

Keeping it in the garage, or just somewhere you can plug it in overnight helps somewhat because it gets heated up before your drive using the grid electricity.

The consumption is still higher though. Mine goes from 14 kWh/100km when it’s 20 Celsius to 24 kWh/100km when it’s -10 Celsius. Highway consumption changes less dramatically as going faster you spend a larger share of the energy on moving as opposed to heating. So 18 kWh/100km to 20 kWh/100km.

Range wise that’s a 25% reduction in usable range. I do 400 km comfortably during the summer and 300 km during the winter. Mine has a heat pump though, which should make it more efficient when it comes to heating.

Re: Cratering motor fuel sales in Norway show the death spiral that can end oil

#57
post #46
post #10

A couple of comments on the article point out that if gas stations start closing due to reduced demand, it will accelerate the effect by making it more cumbersome to own a gas car. Recently, some of the industrial area near my apartment in NYC was rezoned for housing, and nearly all of the local gas stations were torn down (not because of low demand but because a 15 story building would be more profitable). The resul…

Perhaps not applicable to NYC, but isnt it kind of troubling that people who cant afford a luxury vehicle (55-100k) could be put in a position where they have to spend more money (gas) to go fill up out of their way, taxed for being poor, or shut up and take public transit (if it even exists where they live)? Surely no one driving an EV ever got to their position to buy one driving an ICE. Edit: happy this comment in…

China has EVs that aren't luxury and I'm pretty sure Europe does as well if I am reading your comment correct you are trying to insinuate that EVs are luxury. If not your comment needs some clarity.

Re: Cratering motor fuel sales in Norway show the death spiral that can end oil

#58
Motor fuel sales cannot be the sole main indicator for a "death spiral that can end oil".

Oil/Petroleum products are massively employed in the manufacture of daily life items (pretty much maybe everything, not just plastics) and cutting the usage of petroleum products in that area will be the real death spiral that can end oil.

Re: Cratering motor fuel sales in Norway show the death spiral that can end oil

#59
In 2025 bans of diesel will begin for some large populations Athens, Madrid, Mexico City, Paris, etc. Electric buses for Cape Town, Milan, Quito, etc. [0]

If these occur with no difficulties, it will be easier for governments to uphold their 2030 and 2035 agreements.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-out_of_fossil_fuel_vehic...

Re: Cratering motor fuel sales in Norway show the death spiral that can end oil

#60
post #46
post #10

A couple of comments on the article point out that if gas stations start closing due to reduced demand, it will accelerate the effect by making it more cumbersome to own a gas car. Recently, some of the industrial area near my apartment in NYC was rezoned for housing, and nearly all of the local gas stations were torn down (not because of low demand but because a 15 story building would be more profitable). The resul…

Perhaps not applicable to NYC, but isnt it kind of troubling that people who cant afford a luxury vehicle (55-100k) could be put in a position where they have to spend more money (gas) to go fill up out of their way, taxed for being poor, or shut up and take public transit (if it even exists where they live)? Surely no one driving an EV ever got to their position to buy one driving an ICE. Edit: happy this comment in…

Not in New York... But our Bolt, while not the cheapest car ever, certainly doesn't match your description here. One doesn't have to buy a Tesla to get an EV.
Post reply on HN