Can anyone recommend a good article comparing environmental lifecycle costs of EV vs combustion engine that include lithium and cobalt mining?
Cratering motor fuel sales in Norway show the death spiral that can end oil
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Re: Cratering motor fuel sales in Norway show the death spiral that can end oil
#22Norway is more of a city than a country, and a rather wealthy one that is difficult to draw conclusions from when it comes to consumer spending patterns. I'd brush this off as not that interesting. However, if we're looking for oil death spirals in Norway, I recommend: https://crudeoilpeak.info/global-peak/norway-peak-oil
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Re: Cratering motor fuel sales in Norway show the death spiral that can end oil
#23Can anyone recommend a good article comparing environmental lifecycle costs of EV vs combustion engine that include lithium and cobalt mining?
I’d love that too. What I want to know is the total impact of me keeping my 2016 ICE or if I should switch to a new EV, new because there are no used EVs really where I am.
It’s not a trivial exercise.
I think it’s important to look at the future pollution and compare without going into the sunk cost fallacy. The pollution from your existing car cannot be taken back and I think there is no point to make this pollution "worth it".
Producing a new vehicle, that will generate a lot of pollution too, may be better over time. It will depend on your electricity grid and how much you drive.
You old vehicle may also go on the used market and replace a much more polluting vehicle. It’s difficult to take into account all parameters.
Re: Cratering motor fuel sales in Norway show the death spiral that can end oil
#24Norway is more of a city than a country, and a rather wealthy one that is difficult to draw conclusions from when it comes to consumer spending patterns. I'd brush this off as not that interesting. However, if we're looking for oil death spirals in Norway, I recommend: https://crudeoilpeak.info/global-peak/norway-peak-oil
Not Norwegian, but lived there for 2 years, in multiple places from Narvik to Stavanager to Oslo to Trondheim. Population wise, Norway slots between Minnesota and South Carolina and is ~7.5x the mighty "city" of Alaska. It has a mainland latitude sweep of nearly 24 degrees, California covers 16 degrees of latitude. It's coastline is a mind boggling 51,748 miles. I can't find a good stat on total road network size, bu…
> As a Washington State resident, my biggest primary holdback with going all electric is the range reduction that occurs in winter months due to cold.
From what I can tell, a substantial mitigating factor is if you can garage your vehicle.
Re: Cratering motor fuel sales in Norway show the death spiral that can end oil
#25A couple of comments on the article point out that if gas stations start closing due to reduced demand, it will accelerate the effect by making it more cumbersome to own a gas car. Recently, some of the industrial area near my apartment in NYC was rezoned for housing, and nearly all of the local gas stations were torn down (not because of low demand but because a 15 story building would be more profitable). The resul…
ICE cars don't need to fill up near home, because it is so quick. EVs ideally fill up where they're going to be unattended, because it takes longer.
It makes sense that you'd find more EV charging in residential areas and more gas stations near where people travel and work.
Re: Cratering motor fuel sales in Norway show the death spiral that can end oil
#26Can anyone recommend a good article comparing environmental lifecycle costs of EV vs combustion engine that include lithium and cobalt mining?
This is a good one from the head of research at Our World in Data: https://www.sustainabilitybynumbers.com/p/ev-fossil-cars-cli... Also a followup about air pollution, but this doesn't include production: https://www.sustainabilitybynumbers.com/p/electric-vehicles-...
Thank you! That was exactly what I was looking for.
Re: Cratering motor fuel sales in Norway show the death spiral that can end oil
#27A couple of comments on the article point out that if gas stations start closing due to reduced demand, it will accelerate the effect by making it more cumbersome to own a gas car. Recently, some of the industrial area near my apartment in NYC was rezoned for housing, and nearly all of the local gas stations were torn down (not because of low demand but because a 15 story building would be more profitable). The resul…
ICE cars don't need to fill up near home, because it is so quick. EVs ideally fill up where they're going to be unattended, because it takes longer. It makes sense that you'd find more EV charging in residential areas and more gas stations near where people travel and work.
if you have to drive 15 minutes there and 15 minutes back, that's not faster than a fast-charge top-up at the fast charge point down the street, though. There's a critical density below which if you have a charge point nearby the nuisance of "going out for gas" and not being able to do anything else during that time isn't worth it compared to plugging in your car, and then just walking away for an hour. Especially if it's just down the road and you can just walk home, then walk back an hour later to pick up your car.
Because that's what's really in competition: you have to be with your car the entire drive to and from the gas station, plus the few minutes it takes to fill up and pay, whereas you don't have to be with your car when you're plugging it in to charge: that time is now yours.
Re: Cratering motor fuel sales in Norway show the death spiral that can end oil
#28Norway is more of a city than a country, and a rather wealthy one that is difficult to draw conclusions from when it comes to consumer spending patterns. I'd brush this off as not that interesting. However, if we're looking for oil death spirals in Norway, I recommend: https://crudeoilpeak.info/global-peak/norway-peak-oil
Being Norwegian, that is one of the funniest description I have heard of the country which in reality is the exact opposite.
I suspect that what the poster is getting at is that Norway's population is small and very wealthy, and it is concentrated around Oslo/Bergen/Trondheim so that it's risky to generalise based on what's happening there because, on global scale, it's a bit like a large-ish wealthy city (there are 1 million more people in Hongkong than in Norway).
I don't think he meant that it wasn't an actual country. It obviously is.
On top of that, Norway has a lot of hydro power, I believe. So not only there are wealthy with a small population, but they get effectively free electricity...
Re: Cratering motor fuel sales in Norway show the death spiral that can end oil
#29Can anyone recommend a good article comparing environmental lifecycle costs of EV vs combustion engine that include lithium and cobalt mining?
I’d love that too. What I want to know is the total impact of me keeping my 2016 ICE or if I should switch to a new EV, new because there are no used EVs really where I am.
In terms of impact, think of it this way - As long as you sell your ICE car to someone else, it's still being driven and maybe it's displacing the purchase of a new ICE car, which is what we really want to prevent. Ideally we would just stop producing new ICE vehicles completely and repair/maintain/sell the existing fleet until it's no longer needed. Hopefully new EVs will also be driven for a very long time, and their on-going environmental impact will lessen as power production decarbonizes going forward. People focus a lot on 'personal' impact, but as long as the car is still being driven, it doesn't really matter who is doing the driving.
Re: Cratering motor fuel sales in Norway show the death spiral that can end oil
#30Earlier quoted context omitted.
Being Norwegian, that is one of the funniest description I have heard of the country which in reality is the exact opposite.
I suspect that what the poster is getting at is that Norway's population is small and very wealthy, and it is concentrated around Oslo/Bergen/Trondheim so that it's risky to generalise based on what's happening there because, on global scale, it's a bit like a large-ish wealthy city (there are 1 million more people in Hongkong than in Norway). I don't think he meant that it wasn't an actual country. It obviously is.…
I got the impression they are a firm believer in the spherical cow model