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"No, it's less effort than that"

smartguess.is

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Re: "No, it's less effort than that"

#31

Management has to push for lower estimates because developers have an incentive to overestimate to make life easier. The only situation where this isn't a problem is with eager junior devs, and devs that have direct skin in the game, such as at startups or a department about to be cut for being unprofitable.

You punish us for being ambitious and failing and give us nothing for being ambitious and succeeding.

As a developer, I endorse doing as little as possible as a result.

Re: "No, it's less effort than that"

#32

Management has to push for lower estimates because developers have an incentive to overestimate to make life easier. The only situation where this isn't a problem is with eager junior devs, and devs that have direct skin in the game, such as at startups or a department about to be cut for being unprofitable.

[deleted]

Re: "No, it's less effort than that"

#33
post #17

My estimate math: R = t × [1.1^ln(n+p) + 1.3^X] R - time it really takes. t - shortest possible time it would take without need to communicate. n - number of people working and involved during the process, both customers and developing organization. p - longest communication distance network involved in the project (typically from the lowest level developer to the end user) X - number of new tools, libraries, techniq…

>X - number of new tools, libraries, techniques, used in the process How would you know this before starting dev work?

new to the team, I suppose. Everyone on the team has shipped a rails heroku PG app? Then you have a low number of shinies.

Shipping a Vaticle + Haskell on nixOS in your own server farm?

Maybe that's more new tools for the team...

Re: "No, it's less effort than that"

#35
post #7

A valuable discussion to have is about how to change the scope so that the cost/return tradeoff is right for your stakeholders. I've definitely seen devs assume too much needs to be done, just like I've seen non-devs ignore key parts of the problem that push up the time. Sometimes it's trying to make a general solution when actually what's needed is someone to sit down with a spreadsheet for a day. > There is back-an…

>but this is the issue addressed with planning poker. It isn't. Having a team which is both intimately familiar enough with the set of features as a whole, and understands how to use the system to get around the inevitable 'A does it in X while B does it in X*3', are both prerequisites. Suffice to say, with the amount of discussion based around Scrum being done wrong alone, neither of those are even remotely a given.…

I mean it is literally the issue that planning poker addresses - identify differing expectations without influencing the initial estimate. People can then totally ignore that, and ignoring something makes it pointless, but that's true of literally anything.

It identifies a lack of a shared understanding of the task. Or framed differently, it identifies when you probably all have the same expectation and you can move on.

Re: "No, it's less effort than that"

#36
post #11

Management has to push for lower estimates because developers have an incentive to overestimate to make life easier. The only situation where this isn't a problem is with eager junior devs, and devs that have direct skin in the game, such as at startups or a department about to be cut for being unprofitable.

>>Management has to push for lower estimates because developers have an incentive to overestimate to make life easier. Bingo, having just left a mega-corp this is the status-quo of a lot of projects I had visibility into - take a trivial task, estimate it at 8-13 story points (i.e. the whole 2 week sprint), have nobody question the estimates, complete the story in 1-2 days and then chill for the other 8-9 days left i…

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Re: "No, it's less effort than that"

#37
post #21

1975: Fred Brook's wrote[1]: “The bearing of a child takes nine months, no matter how many women are assigned.” Can't get better than this [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mythical_Man-Month

I don't know, I've seen some 10x women do it in seven months, though the deliverable did suffer.

Re: "No, it's less effort than that"

#39
I love these types of posts. Most of my career as a developer felt like being in a bazaar, where the buyer (manager) would constantly be trying to get the price of a carpet down (my work) without ever knowing exactly what type of carpet they wanted, but having a vague idea of a "quality" carpet in their head.
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