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We have used too many levels of abstractions

unixsheikh.com

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Re: We have used too many levels of abstractions

#31

Post by SanderNL »

One thing to keep in mind is that software for a dialysis machine requires a different approach from some overly generic CRUD app exposing how many mansions you have or something.

There is a lot of asinine software in the world and that’s fine. Lots of “real problems” are pretty asinine and don’t require heroic engineering feats.

Just slapping some bullshit together is good enough in a frightening number of cases.

Hate it too myself, but I have come to accept I can either prove them wrong by building my own business and outcompeting them through my supposed superior engineering or just swallow that I’m yelling at the clouds.

Re: We have used too many levels of abstractions

#32

Post by mordae »

mrkeen wrote: post #22

I think a good first step towards improvement in this space is by separating the terms 'abstraction' and 'indirection'. Programmers too often add indirections which don't provide abstraction: * The programmer wants to POST an object to a web server. * The programmer also wants to think about it at the level of POSTing an object to a web server. * And yet the programmer creates an HttpClient.java and an AbstractClient…

Because almost all programmers tend to add not only abstractions, but also shortcuts. And as everybody knows, shortcut is a longer but more challenging route.

Re: We have used too many levels of abstractions

#34

Post by omneity »

kosolam wrote: post #8

I support the notion of this post. In the last 6 years I’ve mostly been busy removing layers of abstraction in order to uncover the set of tools which is a good balance for me. In example, replaced clojurescript with Javascript and then eventually Typescript. Replaced Clojure with Java. Replaced docker with VMs. Avoided ansible in favor of simple bash scripts. Avoid all kinds of firewalls in favor of understanding an…

I don't know how others feel, but to me docker is definitely less complex internally than a VM. For one, I'm running a single kernel/set of drivers rather than two.

But operationally yeah I agree, the stricter separation could make it easier to use a VM to get stuff done.

Re: We have used too many levels of abstractions

#35

Post by ChatGTP »

onetimeuse92304 wrote: post #12

I think there is one interesting angle to this problem. I am someone who grew up with the technology, as the levels of abstractions were being added. I am now benefiting from all those accumulated decades of knowledge. As the IT / development world was changing, I had enormous privilege and comfort to learn the things at the pace they were happening. Being able to assimilate changes over long decades. Be a witness to…

I feel similar, I was a Linux Sysadmin in the early days of Gentoo, studied C and Network programming, configured hardware and RAID arrays and did some courses like "From NAND to Tetris". Over the years I did a LOT of programming.

When "the cloud" came out, I could easily understand the magic behind it all, so it made a lot of sense to me and it still does.

I feel "computer literate", however, even a lot of solid but younger engineers I work with struggle with lower level concepts and just don't have the knowledge and experience with things like networking protocols to be able to solve hard problems.

Re: We have used too many levels of abstractions

#36

Post by joeman1000 »

What else can you do but look at files and code to figure out problems? And why use a monospace font for prose? I agree otherwise though, it can bite you in the arse if you don’t understand the layers of abstraction you’re dealing with. It’s the reason I sort of don’t like browser-based stuff. We already have a full OS stack for doing stuff, why add another on top of it?

Re: We have used too many levels of abstractions

#38

Post by Zetobal »

It's not only developers we had a regress in skill in the art/vfx world as well. If there are no tutorials with step by step instructions on youtube most people can't resolve visual/art/vfx problems anymore. It's about the most basic things if you get people with "art" degrees today maybe 3 out of 10 can draw or sketch. If they are not in front of a computer they can't communicate visually. They are also not able to adept or solve problems on the fly which is really important if you supervise on set.

Re: We have used too many levels of abstractions

#39

Post by Danieru »

loup-vaillant wrote: post #29

> Question everything. Especially things that don't make any sense to you. Don't just assume that someone else knows better - that's how you quickly turn into a blind follower. That’s what I do by default since I was a kid, and I can tell you the social pressure not to is significant. I recall an interview I did once, and one reason I failed it was "questioning everything". It didn’t even felt like it, I was just ask…

Questioning everything also gets you stuck in bed asking why the sky is a different shade of blue.

Others might have accepted the unknown and ate breakfast.

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