France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations

> Still, it's an Army.

It beehoves the Palestines to build a strong military (which they can't without a State) and not hide like cowards lacking any code of ethics or morality. Is it correct to say Israel won't like that, because they prefer Hamas/Hizb-style millitia and collective punishment over a recognised military (and not a puppet "security force" like the NSF)? If true, do Israelis realise this and despite the government for it?

> This is even more pronounced with the religious right soldiers which can be easily identifiable.

I've seen videos, yeah. Not pretty at all. The Iron Wall is a great deterrence, but rebels would always want to overcome it in an act of defiance, no matter the cost. And when they do, the terror they unleash is not justifiable by any means, but all too predictable, nevertheless. That the rebels who are (or consider themselves) victims of "slow terror" (of racist elements of the IDF) would inflict more terror is so ironic, that I feel I can almost understand why the Israeli appartus acts ruthlessly (some might say, maniacal) like it does in face of whatever it perceives to be antisemitism (given the woe it wrought on them at the hands of the Europeans; though, now the wrath has been successfully teleported onto the muslims of the Levant).

> So there's a lot of hate and a lot of it is hyped which makes people cautious and distrustful.

Normalisation efforts are a great starting point. I'm surprised Saudia is so further ahead in that process. That is a watershed moment regardless of the plight of Palestine. Hopefully, we see more of it. Though, I think the US military's overbearing reach in the region (in Kuwait, Iraq, Turkey, Egypt) is doing more harm than good, since as far as the Palestine is concerned, it is a religious issue that will not go away, even if Palestine goes away. Speaking as a Muslim, Al Quds (Old Jerusalem), Al Majdal (in Ashkelon), and Hebron will always remind us of what once was. Time will tell. May be time will heal all wounds. There just so much agony here for what's a small parcel of land. Albeit, important land to both the peoples. Thank Abraham's God, unlike Jesus (SA), Muhammad (SA) wasn't born in that same parcel of land.

> There are pacifists but they are rare.

Norman Finkelstein, a very controversial figure, said in a talk at University of Waterloo (2008) that the issue of Palestine is a simple one but that the US had made it complicated for whatever it stands to gain (I wonder what that is, I have no clue). Finkelstein says, most of the world (via UN) agrees that Israel should rapidly work towards as 2 state solution, when only US doesn't and it consistently vetos most resolutions (some 280+ that have been brought against Israel, which is an astoundingly high number). What do you make of this stance (which comes from someone who's considered 'an enemy of Israel').

> It's an ideal and that's something far more scary.

Well, Israel eventually split from Judea... Is that the kind of ideal settlers harbour long term?

> But a mob mentality and siloed communities create a more violent outcome.

The doxxing of people and getting them fired for what they consider to be antisemitism or Nazi-like behaviour makes me so fearful. I can almost describe as being terrorized to even talk about this topic, lest I say something stupid (I'm being very careful what I'm writing here, but I know I might have slipped, because it is possible to bad faith argue everything one doesn't agree with). These initiatives, from what I can tell, have backing from some very influential, well connected, and wealthy people.

Another theme I see on the Israeli tech Twitter, is the insistence on convincing the American public about the war. Not sure if propoganda is the right term, but it is pretty close to it. The constant messaging around "the West is next", "our 9/11", "Hamas is ISIS" (which aren't wrong), and the subtle flaring up of Islamophobia ("jihadi death cult", "culture of darkness", "barbaric people"), or the exploitation of Western guilt ("more Jews killed since the Shoah", "never again", "free Palestine = extermination of Jews") is a bit unnerving to watch. I'm sure the Jewish people think it is fully warranted (I wouldn't know, not many groups were subject to 2000 years of persecution), but it is a bit jarring (and at times seems hysterical) when you're in their cross hairs. This time, it is the entire muslim population that is, apparently.

Also, some folks on the Israeli tech Twitter are quite simply and incomprehensibly incapable of viewing the conditions in Gaza without any semblance of empathy or sympathy. I consider tech to be fairly liberal and left leaning and so this totally caught me totally off-guard the first few days. I understand the rage, but I'm mostly shocked by the kind of views they ascribe to in light of extracting vengeance.

> This is a scary dystopian future.

If so, I wonder why the US supports such a future unconditionally? On the other hand, the political and civil unrest in the Middle East for what happens if they pull support, is also quite unimaginable. May be China can step in with fresh ideas (though, Israel might say they're antisemites).

If I am being Machiavellian, I can see why ethnic cleansing might be an eventual option when push comes to shove, while morphing the well-meaning Oslo Accords into apartheid (some object to use of this term, I am none the wiser) is the ongoing preference.

> I don't think there's a preference for millitia ... There's also execution of a solution which is MUCH harder, e.g. clearing settlements, etc.

This then seems like a federated government with two sets of laws and two power centers (like the one proposed to prevent the partition of British India) might be probable after a sustained period of peace, with free movement of goods and people; especially since going back to 1967 borders is non-workable to make way for a 2-state solution, on top of the already non-negotiable (from Israel's pov) Right to Return for the Arab refugees in Gaza, Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan.

> The problem is that it's really hard to root out extremists.

Such tragic events are as much a chance for the centre / left to root out far-right and far-left as they're for them to cement their political ideology. I genuinely hope the US and the UK push the Israeli Government to abandon this concept of "security state" (as some put it) and work towards equal rights of the Palestine people (ie, make it part of the constitution). Some might say that it is an unfair outcome for Israel, but frankly, there's nothing that's been fair in this overwhelmingly one-sided conflict. Hopefully, the Arab League can offer wholesale normalization in exchange (not sure about Syria re: Golan Heights and other proxies of Iran). It'll be nice to see what peaceful Middle East looks like, for once.

> The vetos in the UN are related to resolutions brought about by Arab countries who have more influence in the UN due to their numbers.

Geo-politics is one way to look at it; another way is the human rights violations as reported by independent bodies (Amnesty, HRW, and even B'Tselem) which can't be merely dismissed as agenda of the Arab states? As one example: The 2006 Lebanon War, in particular, had heavy Lebanese civilian casualties (2 town centers leveled, for all intents and purposes, which still don't show much signs of infrastructure recovery), and another report claiming that Israel launched 5million mortars into Southern Lebanon after a cease fire was agreed (and 1 million of it remained unexploded). I am in the camp that believes that this recklessness is due to the impunity US affords Israel, which invariably, makes me very apprehensive of the US policing the region in general, even though, I genuinely think the US has much better ideals than most other Arab countries (not a high bar).

> They wrote that Israel is 100% to blame for everything even the attack on its own people. That is delusional and scary.

The critics (not me) come from a place where they say though Hamas violently lashes out for the sole purpose of spreading terror, their previous offers for a long truce (hudna; apparently accepted by the IDF but denied by the Israeli Government) and attempt at non-violent protests (The Great March of 2018) against the siege hasn't worked, as reportedly IDF maimed and killed 200+ Gazans.

Norman Finkelstein says that as the reports of 7 Oct were coming out, it wasn't clear just what had happened, and that the left were wrong to put out statements in support of them.

Then, he posits the notorious Mandela quip ("One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter"; I don't ascribe to it, because I haven't personally been subject to apartheid, but my community, not too dissimilar to the Druze, has been in 12th to 17th centuries in Iraq, Iran, Egypt, and Yemen; and thereafter across most of the British Empire) applies to Hamas (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m36CUGA1Ucw&t=2700); and that while their terrorist acts are reprehensible as a matter of fact (innocent lives lost), the moral judgement is however harder to pass (ex: Nat Turner's rebellion against slavery in the US), given Israel's role in inciting / incentivizing such a response (again, not my view).

> There's concern that Israel will find itself isolated again if it lets such rhetoric slide.

Understandable, but their response has been, from what I can tell, to incite Islamophobia. Remind the West that this is "a clash of civilizations". I'd rather relinquish all of Levant to Israel to have it stopped, because the previous wave wasn't at all easy.

> It's about as triggering as can be.

Sigh. Not to downplay or compare, but such triggers (Shoah v Nakba) exist on both sides, and it seems limitless, this cycle of anguish.

> Biden is actually pushing to something that would resemble a Marshal plan for Gaza with UN rule.

I predict a month or two from now, there will come a point when other (uninvolved) populace (in the West, even if not in the Arab world) will simply exhaust their emotional capacity to follow the conflict. It'll be interesting to see how things proceed then. I instead hope for war/crime trials (of those responsible on both sides), long-term truce, and expediting a 2-state plan (either Palestine as a protectorate / federate (without 1967 borders) enshrined in the Israeli constitution, or a sovereign republic (w/ 1967).

> They don't have the capability of nuance or diplomacy that the US has.

Don't think the Arab states trust the US... and I'd argue that indulging the nuances has what's led us to a complicated situation. I am not an expert, but in my own naive way, I think some hefty compromises are a way forward unless Israel believes it can remain a "security state" forever, and wait out a total Palestine defeat (as in Arabs leaving voluntarily).

(ps sincere apologies if any of my replies have been inconsiderate / tone-deaf)

I can see why that is; otoh a few Palestinians I've spoken to feel a deep longing for the farms and the lands they lost. This impasse must inform them that their violent struggle (Fidayeen etc) did more harm than good. So much so that, their non-violent struggle is also met with violence. A first step could be for the Israeli government to acknowledge that pain, even if they won't grant them their right (which, personally, I think they should on a case-by-case basis, like how the US hands Green Cards, for instance).

> Jerusalem has always been a problem.

Whatever solves Jerusalem and Hebron is what the eventual solution should look like too. The Ottomans established the status quo, but that's all gone. Perhaps, a new status quo can be agreed. Normalization efforts are a great start in that direction.

> UAE/Saudis who are amazing human rights violators to begin with...

They even persecute us, so no objections to that (:

> It amazes me that liberals side with a murderous religious extremist organization.

Not defending him, but to clarify, I believe, Finkelstein is left / far-left? And that he isn't approving of their terror, but he says he can't condemn them as well (which perhaps can be misconstrued as siding with them... very thin ice to stand on) as he sees Gaza as a concentration camp, and Hamas' attacks as a natural outcome of an oppressed people (not my view).

> As part of that trip we went together to a concentration camp. Up until that point I recall the Palestinian kids talking about their suffering a lot. That changed them and I think helped them reframe the conflict.

Yeah the peoples must be humanized in each others eyes: I see Israelis (in tech) latch on to anything that's pro-Palestine as pro-Hamas and framing almost any support for their cause as antisemitism. The pain and the suffering that can lead to such a world-view (on both the sides) is just unfathomable. May be, via education (like you say) and with time, this will go away.

> Biden's middle east meetings were canceled made things worse.

Biden's initial remarks and actions were overwhelmingly one-sided. Sunak's remarks still continue to be. As politicians, I think they understand better than most that the issue of Palestine is emotionally charged unlike any other (this has nothing to do with antisemistism like some claim, but a sense of injustice and loss of pride from being repeatedly trounced across decades in defeats), and equating this war as war against ISIS isn't going to convince anyone in the Muslim world. I refuse to believe the policy makers are this out of touch, and so, the only other possible explanation is, they are out of their depth.

> Moderation in the combat is one of them.

Appreciate Biden for this, but 6000+ bombs and the ongoing siege isn't exactly moderation. The Palestinians aren't sufficiently protected. I don't have a good answer to what else the Israeli government could do, but some have suggested doing nothing might have won Israel world's empathy (ex: after the 2008 terror attacks in Mumbai, the worst in India's history but not at the scale of 7 Oct, by Pakistan-sponsored militants, India did nothing violent; though, granted Pakistan's nuclear deterrence also plays a role in this). In fact, despite the scale of Israeli response, there already exist vocal factions within the Arab world that vehemently condemn Hamas for summoning this war and unrest, and squarely blame them (not Israelis) for the plight of Gazans.

> Clear and defined goals is another.

The news has been that there isn't any apart from either driving civilians in to Sinai or destruction of Gaza in a bid to weed-out Hamas; both of which will destabilize the region. Even if there's a ceasefire tomorrow, the worrying part is, how many billions and years are needed for Gaza to even recover from this? There's also the psychological side for the 2million subject to this war. I stumbled upon a video of Israeli bombardment recently, and it truly seemed like apocalypse (https://twitter.com/fatimazsaid/status/1716611673597841541).

As in, Hebron is the worst of the problems, you mean?

> I think that in the past few weeks a lot of people who would normally not say such things became overly triggered. So I'd take it in that context.

Makes sense. I must say though, these same folks are going about that they "won't forget, won't forgive" (IDF-style?) people who are either silent or being "antisemitic". Looks like they're ready to begrudge forever. The mob and cancel culture isn't making things easier either, especially for folks in tech, who speak up. And if their promise to never forgive / forget is real... then G-d help the cancelled.

> He and his people actually sit in on security cabinet meetings to form a strategy and make sure Israel doesn't do anything stupid or evil.

Interesting. Stupid things by the government or IDF / Shin Bet? Is their will to do stupid things only reserved for Hamas (Gaza) / Hizb (Southern Lebanon), or is it quite a general response when it concerns any adversarial or contentious issue (like those involving civilian citizen / non-citizen Arabs, for example)?

> There are many hints that Iran is pulling the strings with Hamas as it did with Syria and Lebanon.

Not sure what Iran wants in this strained economic climate? The timing's all off? The scale of destruction this brought seems utterly wasteful if it was done just to stop Saudia normalizing w/ Israel. And now, if Israel has its way and wipes out Hamas and/or displaces the Gazans permanently, what would Iran have achieved? Personally though, I don't think Iran green-lit this, because it doesn't really make strategic sense for them to sacrifice Hamas to delay normalization by a few years, at best. Some say, even the Hamas' political leadership may not have known about 7 Oct (https://twitter.com/h_lovatt/status/1717119243156688963)

> The claim is that once the ground troops go in the number of civilian casualties will be MUCH higher.

Makes me want to yell "stop!"... but: if I were an Israeli, I can see why I'd think retaliation is fair game.

> The problem is that Israel maintained peace through fear of its mighty army.

Yep, came across a nice tweet that sums up why this tragedy was an inevitable outcome: https://twitter.com/HusseinAboubak/status/171723213179603361... Folks like Mohammed Deif did not decide to take up arms against a very sophisticated military out of lunacy, but did so in a fit of rage. And even then, the best that could be mustered up were rockets that fail most of the time and barely register any damage. The way Hamas acts and behaves reeks of fantasy and desperation. I saw the released IDF interview of the captured al-Qassam members, and they said (without any awareness of what they're up against) that part of the 7 Oct plan was to "occupy" new territory. Bonkers.

> India is in a very different situation.

India is supremely diverse. There's disagreements every which way you look, but the people, together, have endured under a single government. Indians, as a collective, sure aren't under any threat; but there exists ethnic groups within India that are on the brink. I mean, they aren't persecuted or anything (mostly because they aren't up in arms fighting their neighbours thinking they're out to wipe them off the face of this earth), but they thrive alongside others, in this chaotic milieu, just fine.

That said, surprisingly, one of the major roadblocks to an eventual one-state solution (https://twitter.com/iyad_elbaghdadi/status/17156546715770799...) / even a 2-state solution are the (Baptist) Christian politicians in the US who won't allow it (https://twitter.com/lhfang/status/1717246361446551736) even if Israel itself (also unlikely) proposes.

> They are turning into a police state over there. Not a great place to be in anymore.

For minorities, yeah it isn't particularly nice; but you're always welcome to explore. The country is not at all homogeneous, least of all in its policies and politics. It is pretty much a federation of nations in all but name.