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Royal College considers no confidence move after Excel recruitment debacle

theregister.com

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Re: Royal College considers no confidence move after Excel recruitment debacle

#61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> sometimes I wonder if most of us do the job to play with silly tools rather than actually make shit. Yes? I thought this is common knowledge. Here's a universal tool whose potential is limited only by one's imagination, and yet most of the jobs in our profession are at best boring - the high-paying ones usually involve making actively harmful things that shouldn't exist in the first place (see e.g. whole adtech for…

Often I can do what I need in a few minutes in excel where à programmer would take hours and not give me what I actually asked for. And in excel I can modify and update my work. Where a programme solution is static and needs tons more hours for every change needed. Often we see people claiming that "This new thing is the spreadsheet killer, like ai at the moment. People have been saying this forever but spreadsheets…

What I think more people should appreciate is that in any business process, computer or otherwise, there's a speed/generality/correctness/accountability tradeoff.

AI sits at the "speed" corner. Excel, a fully dynamic interactive programming language with one type "cell", gives slightly better correctness and accountability. Coalescing process into program continues to move you to the other end. Once you start employing typechecking and later formal verification, you get more correctness and accountability - BUT at a cost of development time, AND generality. The correctness is achieved precisely by being tailored to the specifics and rejecting the general.

This can apply to entirely physical processes. Some "aerospace" grade parts are very similar to normal parts .. but with a huge overhead of accountability. Because getting the right outcome matters.

Re: Royal College considers no confidence move after Excel recruitment debacle

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> sometimes I wonder if most of us do the job to play with silly tools rather than actually make shit. Yes? I thought this is common knowledge. Here's a universal tool whose potential is limited only by one's imagination, and yet most of the jobs in our profession are at best boring - the high-paying ones usually involve making actively harmful things that shouldn't exist in the first place (see e.g. whole adtech for…

Often I can do what I need in a few minutes in excel where à programmer would take hours and not give me what I actually asked for. And in excel I can modify and update my work. Where a programme solution is static and needs tons more hours for every change needed. Often we see people claiming that "This new thing is the spreadsheet killer, like ai at the moment. People have been saying this forever but spreadsheets…

This is huge. Programmers and programming are not the problem. the process is. For a wide variety of uses, the cost of programming erases the value added.

Re: Royal College considers no confidence move after Excel recruitment debacle

#63
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Often I can do what I need in a few minutes in excel where à programmer would take hours and not give me what I actually asked for. And in excel I can modify and update my work. Where a programme solution is static and needs tons more hours for every change needed. Often we see people claiming that "This new thing is the spreadsheet killer, like ai at the moment. People have been saying this forever but spreadsheets…

> Often I can do what I need in a few minutes in excel where à programmer would take hours and not give me what I actually asked for That's likely not down to the tool, more likely a complex requirement you understand but they don't. (And are you sure you're getting the right answer? IIRC an analysis showed 10% of spreadsheets have errors - devs do care about good results, and that does take extra time) > Where a pro…

Economics. The scarcity of devs always leads to rationing and its related sources of friction. From the "requestor" standpoint, friction could dominate the cost of getting things done.

Re: Royal College considers no confidence move after Excel recruitment debacle

#64
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> sometimes I wonder if most of us do the job to play with silly tools rather than actually make shit. Yes? I thought this is common knowledge. Here's a universal tool whose potential is limited only by one's imagination, and yet most of the jobs in our profession are at best boring - the high-paying ones usually involve making actively harmful things that shouldn't exist in the first place (see e.g. whole adtech for…

No. Most of us work to deliver > Here's a universal tool whose potential is limited only by one's imagination And it crashing, and it being limited in capacity, and not being as flexible as SQL (in areas SQL is good at). It's not a universal tool, good as it is.

I work to earn money, I work to feel useful, I work for the challenge, etc. I do not really work to deliver adtech or LoB features. That's just a (un?)fortunate byproduct of the process.

Re: Royal College considers no confidence move after Excel recruitment debacle

#65
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Copy Paste technician , fabulous, up there with Prompt engineer

Is prompt engineer a derogatory term for people who spend their work day at a shell prompt? If so, I can own up to being a prompt engineer. Or maybe it’s an engineer who does their work promptly. In that case, I’m not sure I qualify.

[deleted]

Re: Royal College considers no confidence move after Excel recruitment debacle

#66

People think that Excel is the most used "programming language" in the world. Which may or may not be true. But the one truth is this: the world runs on broken Excel spreadsheets. People have no idea. The number of decisions taken higher up the chain based on wrong numbers are beyond belief. If you've ever been tasked to rewrite a semi-advanced Excel spreadsheet to a dedicated (web)app, you know. I'm a coder and I do…

> People have no idea. The number of decisions taken higher up the chain based on wrong numbers are beyond belief. Yup. That's a lesson in how robust organizational systems are - the errors mostly get compensated for somewhere downstream, so visibly bad outcomes are rare. > If you've ever been tasked to rewrite a semi-advanced Excel spreadsheet to a dedicated (web)app, you know. Yeah, I know. I've worked in a place t…

> The timeframes and costs involved with getting a Proper Software Development Team to build you a Proper App For That are absurd, and are only getting worse with everyone wanting to do bespoke web SPAs using modern practices and tool stacks. Even if one could afford that, the outcome is unlikely to be better for actual users. And so Excel stays, covering for all the processes that are custom enough that there is no ready-made popular Enterprise SaaS on the market that management can order people to use instead.

I've had similar thoughts recently, though without the direct personal experience of trying to convert from a spreadsheet to an app.

Makes me wonder: perhaps what we really need isn't a shiny new framework like React or a design pattern like async/await, but rather "VB for the web"[0] — drag and drop a text field here, a number field there, perhaps a checkbox or some radio buttons, then add some "done" and "cancel" buttons… it shouldn't be as hard as it has become.

Heck, give Figma or whatever a way to be event-driven like VB was, it's not like we should need engineers to hand-craft code that replicates the look of a design document.

[0] Xojo and VB.net both exist, so the question is really: why are they not dominant? Is it as simple as "BASIC-family languages are fundamentally bad"? But the language itself obviously isn't a necessary constraint; and likewise Xcode has Interface Builder (though less reliable in SwiftUI than it was in UIKit, still present, yet why isn't it better?)

Re: Royal College considers no confidence move after Excel recruitment debacle

#67
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are blkaming the process that is uncontolled which uses Excel. They also blam Oriel which is another system

are you commenting from a corporate system that censors the word "blame"?

No just fat fingers and poor eyesight :)

Re: Royal College considers no confidence move after Excel recruitment debacle

#68
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and they just hured unqualified candidates Hopefully not unqualified, just not the "best" available

As defined by the interview process.

they became qualified by an undocumented component of the interview process
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