Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope

med.stanford.edu

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

141–150 of 276 posts

Re: Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope

#141

Post by TheFattestNinja »

astrange wrote: post #106
raydiatian wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> at levels that only result in a little dizziness. Anecdotal first hand account, I would have to completely disagree with you. I tried intravenous ketamine therapy about a year ago. I’m plenty experienced with psychoactives, having experienced several at varying doses, so I knew what I was in for. My IVKT experience was a full on trip, definitely not just passive dizziness.

Is it possible that being an experienced tripper (psychonaut?) sensitizes you to new psychoactives?

While I can imagine it's possible that usage of substance A "breaks" new ground in your sensitivity to substance B by "opening" some new pathways, I find it unlikely:

The "standard" pathways for most substances is to build a tolerance to it (and similar compounds) over time of use. If you drink coffee a lot you don't get hyped by the same dose of caffeine, if you drink lots of alcohol it's harder to get you drunk, etc.

So if anything I'd expect "veterans" to be less sensitive to it. But there are substances that permanently reduce your tolerance to them, usually by causing some form of permanent damage, so it's possible that you might "break" something limiting your experience.

Re: Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope

#142

Post by scotty79 »

CodeCounselor wrote: post #109
Aurornis wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am worried that a lot of the drug-depression research is overlooking an important possibility: that the thing about ketamine/psilocybin/etc that is helping with depression is not some latent property of the molecule, but rather the actual transcendent experience of the trip. Ketamine dosed at levels used in a lot of the original depression studies won’t result in anything resembling a “trip”. Many of the more res…

I am happy to be sorted into the "responsible" category, since I prescribe IV ketamine with the mentioned 40 minute slow IV infusion at 0,5mg per kg of body weight. I would like to chime in a thought about the choice of words... I think that we might be doing us a disservice when reducing the whole discussion down to "trip" or "no trip". Some patients have mild sensory experiences from the treatment, some have unplea…

Isn't the "trip" just a side effect of it having some impact on the brain and if you adjust dosage and protocol so that the trip doesn't happen you are basically left with placebo effect proportional to hope of improvement which is positively correlated with opinions on ketamine?

I'm not sure if I remember correctly but I think I've read ketamine makes neurons groe new dendrites in petri dish. I have no idea how this effect could happen in the brain without making a patient trip.

Re: Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope

#143

Post by scotty79 »

omginternets wrote: post #7

Beyond the importance of controlling the placebo effect, I am worried that a lot of the drug-depression research is overlooking an important possibility: that the thing about ketamine/psilocybin/etc that is helping with depression is not some latent property of the molecule, but rather the actual transcendent experience of the trip. In other words, the trip is the point, not the mechanistic neuro-tinkering [0]. Impor…

> but rather the actual transcendent experience of the trip

As a materialist I think it's absurd. But I think that trip is sure sign that the substance actually does something to neurons. And in case of some substances like drugs if you reduce dosage or adjust protocol so that trip doesn't happen means that you also got rid of any significant effect it might have on the brain.

In my opinion saying that experience of the trip healed me is a bit like saying that my experiencing of reduced immobility of walking in a cast made by bones fuse together and heal, mind is so powerful.

Re: Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope

#144

Post by scotty79 »

TheFattestNinja wrote: post #141
astrange wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it possible that being an experienced tripper (psychonaut?) sensitizes you to new psychoactives?

While I can imagine it's possible that usage of substance A "breaks" new ground in your sensitivity to substance B by "opening" some new pathways, I find it unlikely: The "standard" pathways for most substances is to build a tolerance to it (and similar compounds) over time of use. If you drink coffee a lot you don't get hyped by the same dose of caffeine, if you drink lots of alcohol it's harder to get you drunk, et…

> If you drink coffee a lot you don't get hyped by the same dose of caffeine,

Depends on the dose. If you poison yourself with caffeine later you can get very sensitive to even small amounts of it.

Re: Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope

#145

Post by raducu »

stavros wrote: post #134
psiops wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thread starter argues it's not just fun, but a basic psychological need that we have been ignoring since we stopped "tripping", resulting in an increase in psychological issues.

Yes, but if that were the case, we'd see it being universal around the world until a few decades ago, which, as far as I know, isn't the case.

Transcending death and a longing for deeper meanings for life are quite universal, but yeah, tripping, I don't think so.

But some people might be more comfortable saying there's a fundamental need for tripping than saying there's a fundamental need for religion (which usually encompasses transcending death and deep meanings for life).

Re: Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope

#146

Post by mnky9800n »

cnity wrote: post #139
Aurornis wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am worried that a lot of the drug-depression research is overlooking an important possibility: that the thing about ketamine/psilocybin/etc that is helping with depression is not some latent property of the molecule, but rather the actual transcendent experience of the trip. Ketamine dosed at levels used in a lot of the original depression studies won’t result in anything resembling a “trip”. Many of the more res…

This system of scientific gatekeeping and law enforcement is a direct projection of the barriers put in place between individuals and god by the catholic church. For millennia authorities have attempted to prevent people from having meaningful spiritual experiences directly, of their own accord, via access to substances that grow e.g. in their nearest cow fields. In this way, your psychiatrist friend is simply the ne…

Maybe their friend is simply uninterested in having the liability as opposed to some millennia long conspiracy by the Catholic church making her do it.

And anyways, your statements ignore that there's plenty of hippies on Instagram peddling their mushrooms and Ayahuasca in intense spiritual experiences for only 1500$ a pop. Does the Catholic church control them too?

Re: Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope

#147

Post by rlt »

stavros wrote: post #125
weq wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only in the last 50 years have humans STOPPED tripping because of "saving the children". Before that, for 10s of thousands of years, humans, and animals, have used phsycoactive substances as a way of coping with and processing, reality. Its such a dellusion that humanity has been "pure" at any point in time. Drug prohition, and all its tenticles, is a political tool of mass control. Nothing more, nothing less. Today…

I was with you up until "Its a rediscovery of aincent knowledge". Which, technically yes, but the knowledge is "tripping is fun sometimes".

Out of curiosity, what is your level of experience with psychedelics?

Re: Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope

#148

Post by AlecSchueler »

omginternets wrote: post #7

Beyond the importance of controlling the placebo effect, I am worried that a lot of the drug-depression research is overlooking an important possibility: that the thing about ketamine/psilocybin/etc that is helping with depression is not some latent property of the molecule, but rather the actual transcendent experience of the trip. In other words, the trip is the point, not the mechanistic neuro-tinkering [0]. Impor…

I think you could be right but I wouldn't worry about scientists trying to remove the trip aspect, as doing so in a clinical setting would be a good way to prove/disprove your hypothesis.

Re: Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope

#149

Post by cnity »

mnky9800n wrote: post #146
cnity wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This system of scientific gatekeeping and law enforcement is a direct projection of the barriers put in place between individuals and god by the catholic church. For millennia authorities have attempted to prevent people from having meaningful spiritual experiences directly, of their own accord, via access to substances that grow e.g. in their nearest cow fields. In this way, your psychiatrist friend is simply the ne…

Maybe their friend is simply uninterested in having the liability as opposed to some millennia long conspiracy by the Catholic church making her do it. And anyways, your statements ignore that there's plenty of hippies on Instagram peddling their mushrooms and Ayahuasca in intense spiritual experiences for only 1500$ a pop. Does the Catholic church control them too?

I believe you have misread my post. Powers that be continue to want me to not have mind altering experiences. I continue to have them anyway. So it goes.

Re: Ketamine's effect on depression may hinge on hope

#150

Post by crtified »

suzzer99 wrote: post #87

Related to the psychological vs. physiological discussion: I can say with confidence that the first time I did ecstasy changed how I look at the world. We went for a walk barefoot on warm pavement and it was the most wonderful thing I ever felt. I realized on a visceral level that so much of our personal happiness is based on how we look at things, not what happens to us. I don't know if I got any chemical benefit fr…

Fun is arguably the best (some might say the only authentic) way to cure depression.
Post reply on HN