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Small business owners say they're pressured to hire off-duty cops for security

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Re: Small business owners say they're pressured to hire off-duty cops for security

#581

Post by mcv »

sneak wrote: post #570
DoughnutHole wrote: post #561

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that the USA is shockingly violent compared to basically all other similarly developed countries which are not heavily armed.

This is not actually true. The level of violent crime in 99% of the USA is the same or lower as most other developed countries. For reference, more people kill themselves with guns in the USA than are killed by other people with guns. If gun violence were truly a huge problem, you'd think that suicides would be outnumbered by gun murders, but they're not. The numbers look big because it's a country of 330 million peo…

You make it sound like suicide is totally fine and harmless. Isn't it shocking that lots of people kill themselves with guns?

Because that's the thing with guns: they make killing easy. They also make suicide trivial. I know people who have struggled with depression and survived multiple suicide attempts. If they had access to guns, I don't think they'd be alive right now.

The numbers don't just look big because the US is a large country. Corrected for population size, gun violence in the US is still at least an order of magnitude larger than in other countries. I know of no other country where schools practice shooter drills.

> For example, Obama killed more children with drones in 8 years than children were killed with guns in the USA in 20 years. (In both cases we are talking about absolute figures That does not seem to be even remotely true. Not for any part of that claim. Well, maybe the part about children killed by drone strikes being less than 1000, because I can't find figures about that, but the number of civilians killed by drone strikes in the last 20 years seems to be 10k-20k.

According to [0], 31780 children have been killed by guns between 2000 and 2020. According to [1], the number of children dying from firearms is rising and now larger than the number of children dying from cars or cancer.

Your entire suggestion that people killed by guns is not really a problem sounds incredibly callous about human life.

[0] https://www.prb.org/articles/31780-reasons-to-care-about-gun...

[1] https://www.kff.org/mental-health/issue-brief/child-and-teen...

Re: Small business owners say they're pressured to hire off-duty cops for security

#582

Post by some_random »

mcv wrote: post #581
sneak wrote: post #570

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not actually true. The level of violent crime in 99% of the USA is the same or lower as most other developed countries. For reference, more people kill themselves with guns in the USA than are killed by other people with guns. If gun violence were truly a huge problem, you'd think that suicides would be outnumbered by gun murders, but they're not. The numbers look big because it's a country of 330 million peo…

You make it sound like suicide is totally fine and harmless. Isn't it shocking that lots of people kill themselves with guns? Because that's the thing with guns: they make killing easy. They also make suicide trivial. I know people who have struggled with depression and survived multiple suicide attempts. If they had access to guns, I don't think they'd be alive right now. The numbers don't just look big because the…

You want to talk about callous? Calling people who commit suicide "Killers" is callous (https://concealedcarrykillers.org/). Using suicides to pad statistics to push magazine capacity bans or bans on ergonomic features is callous. You pretending that children being pushed to take their own lives is the same as being killed as bystanders in gang violence or killed in school shootings just so it can be all called "gun violence" is callous.

Re: Small business owners say they're pressured to hire off-duty cops for security

#583

Post by TurkishPoptart »

sneak wrote: post #571
TurkishPoptart wrote: post #539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but this epidemic of urban crime is very new for our generation. We haven't had these "catch-and-release" policies with violent criminals. We haven't legalized shoplifting for sums under $950 before. We haven't had DAs in many major cities that are opposed to jailing violent offenders for "diversity and equity" reasons.

> We haven't legalized shoplifting for sums under $950 before. One of the main reasons for this is because mobile phones keep getting more expensive, and high school kids frequently steal other high school kids' phones. The limit keeps getting raised so that 18 year olds don't end up with felonies on their record.

That is not related to why stores like Target, Rite Aid, etc. continually get looted in San Francisco and other west coast cities.

Re: Small business owners say they're pressured to hire off-duty cops for security

#584

Post by jackskell »

mcv wrote: post #576
pkulak wrote: post #532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find dignity in being alive for my family.

The whole notion of using a gun for self-defense sounds insane to me. The criminal is the one starting the violent interaction and is therefore prepared for it, probably has their gun ready or within easy reach. For me to then want to draw my gun sounds like a recipe to get shot. Being not a threat to a dangerous idiot and getting out alive sounds far preferable to me than dying like a wannabe John Wayne. Everybody b…

The United States was founded with the principle that (from a legal sense) the primacy of power and responsibility belonged to individuals, not government. The lack of connectivity between different societal groups allowed relatively peaceful interactions between groups, (unless you were a Native American or a slave, sadly).

From this framework, people (men, largely) were expected to provide for themselves and their families. Food, shelter, “retirement” (or putting provisions in place for old age), and yes, personal security from threats, both from other individuals and from any future possible oppressive government, as well as being responsible for being personally armed to repel foreign invaders.

In modern times, being armed either in or outside the home (or place of business) gives us a few things. It continues the principle of being responsible for one’s own personal security, rather than relying on societal pressures for bad behavior (!) or dependence on the timely and enthusiastic response of local law enforcement.

I think we would agree that part of the responsibility for firearms ownership is safe storage, mental and legal preparation for an event, and continuous training. With rights come responsibilities. Not everyone will choose to own a firearm, and that’s ok, each person should be allowed to make their own decisions.

Law enforcement efforts are reactionary, not proactive, the negative effects of which are exacerbated by out failed criminal justice system, the full fruits of which have been on display since the 80s, depending on who you believe.

Simple possession of a firearm does not make every (legal) defensive use a quick draw contest or result in a hail of bullets. There is a deterrence affect in locales where lawful weapons carry is legal. FBI statistics, depending on year, will tell us that “civilian” display of a weapon will stop a threat upwards of 93% of the time, without any shots fired. When the “civilian” fires a weapon in self defense, the average number of shots remains less than 3 (although trending upwards..) Law enforcement fires far more rounds per encounter, with the resultant display of (excessive?) force and possibility of downrange consequences.

There are people who would rather draw their weapon to defend themselves and / or their family than depend on the rationality of a person threatening them, who is statistically likely to be in an altered state of mind, mentally ill, or has been released from the criminal justice system un-rehabilitated (or any combination of these).

In a country that can’t even keep drugs out of prisons, as well as other failures to enforce public safety, trying to restrict firearms from being possessed by anyone is not a reality.

As the public failures to enforce existing laws continue to be documented and published, most citizens develop a jaundiced view of the law in general. I think it was societal and family expectations that reinforced morality, not laws, and substituting laws for morality is folly also, given who writes and influences the laws, as well as the tyranny possible by governments selectively enforcing laws.

As you say, everyone being armed does up the stakes, but it ups the stakes for the right group of people - those people who would prey on others.

Re: Small business owners say they're pressured to hire off-duty cops for security

#585

Post by smolder »

TrueSlacker0 wrote: post #495
mattmaroon wrote: post #119

I plan live events these days and the off duty cop shakedown is so real. Good luck getting really any permit. “Oh you’re hiring private security? We don’t think your security plan is sufficient to keep everyone safe.”

I guess I live in a different world. I have run multiple large beer events. (4 or 5,000ppl at the last one) These get approved by our city and state. All I have ever been asked is if we have a security plan, not any details, just that one exists. And it's sort of in passing, usually after the we need a copy of your insurance requirement. There were not any requirements to hire an officer. I still choose to hire 3 off…

You choose to hire off-duty police and don't have the same experience as the person who didn't choose to hire off-duty police...

I'm positive that corruption like GP described is able to coexist with scenarios like yours where everything's above board, but given you are hiring the off-duty police voluntarily, you haven't established that there wouldn't be repercussions for not doing so.

Re: Small business owners say they're pressured to hire off-duty cops for security

#586

Post by nanidin »

Ajedi32 wrote: post #142
nanidin wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a Walmart in my metro area that is responsible for like 80% of all police calls within their municipality. This is the same Walmart that leeches off society in other ways like paying sub-living wages so that employees need to rely on social safety nets to survive. I'm not sure if they have to hire private security, but this is a prime example of a business that should be securing itself or changing location.

To me that actually sounds like a clear example of a business that shouldn't have to hire private security. At least with bars you can claim that the bar is indirectly responsible for instigating the distributive behavior by serving people alcohol. I don't know how you make that argument for a Walmart.

In my state municipalities are required to spend 25% of their budget on police. So effectively 20% of the tax base of the municipality is being used to police Walmart. Walmart isn’t the only business in town, there are lots of businesses, convenience stores, restaurants, you name it - they share what’s left after Walmart, and it doesn’t seem fair.

Re: Small business owners say they're pressured to hire off-duty cops for security

#587

Post by FireBeyond »

ricktdotorg wrote: post #444
pseg134 wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tell us the city or you are just talking nonsense on the internet. I can describe a 1000 plausible but untrue scenarios.

is GGGP's comment about being forced to hire PD officers as security any different than the forced requirement that film producers in Los Angeles are required to hire ex-LAPD as security, that has been going on for years? while the article i reference is from ~2008[0], as an LA resident living in Hollywood, i see examples of retired LAPD guys every week "guarding" film sets even in 2023: Such talk has angered Todd --…

> the other 150-odd retired cops who have the required LAPD-issued permits

I'd love to see whether it's at all possible for someone who isn't a LEO or retired try to acquire these permits, and just how brazen they are that this is a racket for cops.

Re: Small business owners say they're pressured to hire off-duty cops for security

#588

Post by mcv »

some_random wrote: post #582
mcv wrote: post #581

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make it sound like suicide is totally fine and harmless. Isn't it shocking that lots of people kill themselves with guns? Because that's the thing with guns: they make killing easy. They also make suicide trivial. I know people who have struggled with depression and survived multiple suicide attempts. If they had access to guns, I don't think they'd be alive right now. The numbers don't just look big because the…

You want to talk about callous? Calling people who commit suicide "Killers" is callous ( https://concealedcarrykillers.org/ ). Using suicides to pad statistics to push magazine capacity bans or bans on ergonomic features is callous. You pretending that children being pushed to take their own lives is the same as being killed as bystanders in gang violence or killed in school shootings just so it can be all called "gu…

I am not the person in this conversation who was suggesting that people killing themselves was not so bad. Are you suggesting it's callous to take suicide seriously?

Sorry, but your rhetorical trickery over people's lives is sickening.

Re: Small business owners say they're pressured to hire off-duty cops for security

#589

Post by lobf »

Jerrrry wrote: post #538
MrJohz wrote: post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know why you're jumping to nuclear weapons as your analogy when gun control laws in other countries make a far better comparison point. Australia is probably a good example here: they have urban and suburban centres in the cities, but they also have vast rural areas. Guns are not banned but limited and regulated. They do not seem to have had this issue where people have been left defenceless by crazy people w…

>They do not seem to have had this issue where people have been left defenceless by crazy people with guns. You have had your head in the sand for the last few years. unarmed teenagers being hit with pepper spray for violating a prude curfew by gun-wielding tyrants is an issue to a more civilized, reasonable person.

Are you talking about the police?

Re: Small business owners say they're pressured to hire off-duty cops for security

#590

Post by lobf »

Kerb_ wrote: post #518
DontchaKnowit wrote: post #510

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Im interested in your neo-nazi attack story I've never met or seen a Neo Nazi in my entire life, wondering how one ends up getting attacked by one.

They were a group of local teenagers and young adults with a shitty little clubhouse along a trail in the woods with some swastikas painted on it. They tried to corner me and my friends with what ended up being air guns with painted tips (since I wasn't into firearms at the time I completely thought they were real) because they thought we got too close to it. They probably weren't part of any organized nazi gang, but…

You think pointing a gun back would have made you safer in those situations? Because it seems like you survived quite fine without one…
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