Localization Failure: Temperature Is Hard • Hacker News Board

Re: Localization Failure: Temperature Is Hard

#131

Post by bangkoksbest » Wed, Oct 18, 2023, 2:07 PM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #126

bangkoksbest wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not true, and it's why we developed separate scales for wind chill (which factors in wind) and heat index (which factors humidity). Looking at the wind chill chart[0] for frostbite times, there is nothing particularly special around the freezing point temperature, even at absurd wind speeds. Ironically, actually, the 0 point for Fahrenheit is far more relevant threshold for frostbite. [0] https://www.weather.…

Wind chill is a mostly stupid number that weather reports like to trot out so they have a amped up "wow it's really cold" factor. Yes, a number of factors p[lay into our subjective perceptions of temperature but you're probably not walking around in a bathing suit when it's below freezing with a howling wind.

Sure, same with heat index. They are tools for communicating the impact of additional axes (wind speed for cold and humidity for heat) on subjective perception. I won't wander out without a scarf, or neck covering, if it's freezing and 40mph winds, but I don't mind to if it's freezing and no wind.

Re: Localization Failure: Temperature Is Hard

#132

Post by kergonath » Wed, Oct 18, 2023, 2:14 PM UTC

Kwpolska wrote: post #83

algas wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may have overcorrected a bit; 300 Kelvin is written 300K, not 300 °K. (The system is a mess.)

It is written "300 K", with a space in the middle. Possibly even a non-breaking space.

Definitely a non-breaking space.

Re: Localization Failure: Temperature Is Hard

#133

Post by dan_hawkins » Wed, Oct 18, 2023, 2:18 PM UTC

psychoslave wrote: post #7

usui wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kelvin doesn't use degrees

Why do we use degrees for other temperatures by the way? Is that related to some kind of absolute vs relative metric? (Kelvin, I guess, is based on absolute zero as a reference point, doesn't it?) Incidentally, why is the degree immune to disappearance in division unlike all other units? That is, if I divide a distance (m) by a speed (m/s) I get a duration (s). From sheer memory, degree doesn't work like that. Any cl…

> Incidentally, why is the degree immune to disappearance in division unlike all other units?

It's not. If you divide temperature by temperature (T/T) you get unitless value. But it doesn't make sense (what does it mean Kelvins per Kelvin?) Your mistake is to take a scalar value for temperature: 300 K / 2 = 150 K (T/scalar = T).

Re: Localization Failure: Temperature Is Hard

#134

Post by School-Cotton » Wed, Oct 18, 2023, 2:23 PM UTC

scbrg wrote: post #127

School-Cotton wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As long as the boundary doesn’t happen in the middle of the work week, I find it completely arbitrary whether the official first day is Saturday, Sunday, or Monday. Why’s it any more weird to start on one or the other?

It's not, but it's annoying when there's a difference, and you won't know which day "Sunday week 45" refers to without doing a thorough background check on the guy who said it. It's a bit like decimal point vs. decimal comma. Neither is inherently better, but man would it have been nice if we'd all picked the same one.

> man would it have been nice if we'd all picked the same one.

No disagreement there!

Re: Localization Failure: Temperature Is Hard

#135

Post by pwdisswordfishc » Wed, Oct 18, 2023, 4:08 PM UTC

grey_earthling wrote: post #105

A useful habit (which I think I picked up while studying physics at sixth-form) is to describe temperature intervals in “Celsius degrees” (and specific temperatures in “degrees Celsius”). So a temperature of 43 degrees Celsius is 18 Celsius degrees hotter than 25 degrees Celsius. 32 Fahrenheit degrees are equivalent to 18 Celsius degrees; but 32 degrees Fahrenheit is equivalent to 0 degrees Celsius. (There's no real…

Temperature difference used to have a separate unit with the symbol ‘deg C’ in an old edition of the SI system.

Modern SI no longer bothers, and just calls the unit ‘kelvin’. Why should you?

Re: Localization Failure: Temperature Is Hard

#136

Post by pwdisswordfishc » Wed, Oct 18, 2023, 4:08 PM UTC

bawolff wrote: post #21

perilunar wrote: post #3

Hard? So is using the degree symbol apparently: not a single one in the whole article. (68F is not a temperature — it’s a seat number.) https://degreeswhat.com/?68

This is taking being a grammar nazi to a whole new level.

I don't know how to tell you, but language prescription is not actually morally equivalent to genocide.

Re: Localization Failure: Temperature Is Hard

#137

Post by Jenda_ » Wed, Oct 18, 2023, 4:34 PM UTC

matsemann wrote: post #16

A bit related, but I hate how many errors I get because I want my system language to be English instead of my native language (Norwegian) on my laptop, phone etc. Because I don't want a badly translated experience. However, I still want units in meters, Celsius, dates written sensibly, time in 24h format etc. But not all apps understand this, which is quite annoying. It's like they only look at the language and make…

Same here,

> However, I still want units in meters, Celsius, dates written sensibly, time in 24h format etc.

but also sensible sorting. I'm currently mixing en_DK, en_IE, en_US, C and cs_CZ (my native language) locales for various LC_*, but it's still not perfect and some apps (such as Thunderbird) ignore this anyway and others (Slack) have only one language setting, so I can select either US with 12-hour time or UK with UK spelling. Does anyone have a solution? Should a write a new locale?

Re: Localization Failure: Temperature Is Hard

#138

Post by Jenda_ » Wed, Oct 18, 2023, 4:48 PM UTC

ginko wrote: post #36

matsemann wrote: post #16

A bit related, but I hate how many errors I get because I want my system language to be English instead of my native language (Norwegian) on my laptop, phone etc. Because I don't want a badly translated experience. However, I still want units in meters, Celsius, dates written sensibly, time in 24h format etc. But not all apps understand this, which is quite annoying. It's like they only look at the language and make…

IMO the worst is that cal starts weeks on Sundays for some weird reason.

I personally like this (at least when displaying the calendar) -- on Sunday, I can have a look what is happening "this week" :)

Re: Localization Failure: Temperature Is Hard

#139

Post by Sebb767 » Wed, Oct 18, 2023, 5:40 PM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #126

bangkoksbest wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not true, and it's why we developed separate scales for wind chill (which factors in wind) and heat index (which factors humidity). Looking at the wind chill chart[0] for frostbite times, there is nothing particularly special around the freezing point temperature, even at absurd wind speeds. Ironically, actually, the 0 point for Fahrenheit is far more relevant threshold for frostbite. [0] https://www.weather.…

Wind chill is a mostly stupid number that weather reports like to trot out so they have a amped up "wow it's really cold" factor. Yes, a number of factors p[lay into our subjective perceptions of temperature but you're probably not walking around in a bathing suit when it's below freezing with a howling wind.

I don't think they are aiming for the wow factor. Most people arguably watch the weather report to find out how cold or warm it feels outside, which heat index and wind chill are far better at reporting.

Re: Localization Failure: Temperature Is Hard

#140

Post by GuB-42 » Wed, Oct 18, 2023, 6:08 PM UTC

psychoslave wrote: post #7

usui wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kelvin doesn't use degrees

Why do we use degrees for other temperatures by the way? Is that related to some kind of absolute vs relative metric? (Kelvin, I guess, is based on absolute zero as a reference point, doesn't it?) Incidentally, why is the degree immune to disappearance in division unlike all other units? That is, if I divide a distance (m) by a speed (m/s) I get a duration (s). From sheer memory, degree doesn't work like that. Any cl…

Degrees are used for many things besides temperature. Angles obviously, but is also common in some countries for alcohol concentration (same as %ABV) and other specialized units. Essentially, "degree" means "unit", and "degree Celsius" means "the unit of Mr.Celsius". SI dropped it for Kelvin probably for consistency and because it is redundant information, we already know that Kelvin is a unit, no need to specify "degree". It also adds a funny character to the abbreviation, and would be the only unit in two words.

It isn't because it is a relative scale, Rankine uses degrees and it is an absolute temperature scale just like Kelvin. The difference, I'd say, is that the Rankine scale didn't go though the SI standardization process.

There is nothing special with division, "degree Celsius" is the unit, you can't separate the "degree" from the "Celsius". You can measure a thermostat dial in degrees Celsius per degree (of angle). The resulting unit is just that, not "Celsius".