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The importance of handwriting is now better understood

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Re: The importance of handwriting is now better understood

#151
post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well like I said above, I think the spatial details of where you’re writing and where the thing you’re writing on is located and the details of the spatial arrangement of your writing itself are all part of it.

A plausible hypothesis, sure, but not much more. It'd be interesting to actually investigate it properly.

For sure!

Though I'd also wonder if it's a tad more than a hypothesis given what we already know about memory both scientifically and, perhaps, from practices people have developed over time to aid memory. I don't know all that nearly well enough to put together the case, but the "memory palace" technique, which is ancient and apparently "tried and true" seems like a striking demonstration of the the basic spatial idea. If there's truth to that, I'd say my suggestion could be reframed as a strategy for using handwriting to aid memory rather than a mere hypothesis.

Regarding the "slowing down" aspect, as others have mentioned too, I'd argue again that this could be couched directly in well established ideas and understandings ... chiefly, I'd imagine, the processes of repetition, practice and synthesis that are essentially common knowledge. The slowed down process of deciding what you're going to write and how probably forces you into a cognitive loop that goes beyond the mere recording of information toward repetition and synthesis. My experience with typing is that the urge to simply record verbatim is more natural to the medium.

Re: The importance of handwriting is now better understood

#152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From that same link: "After six learning sessions, everyone in the video watching and type-writing group had learned the Arabic alphabet and could identify each of its 28 letters. However, people in the handwriting group—who used pen and paper to write each letter during their learning sessions—gained the same level of proficiency after just two learning sessions." Replace handwriting with any other activity. It is p…

No, according to the link the hand-writers learned Arabic much faster than the learners typing on keyboards. Handwriting Arabic facilitated faster learning of the language than typing it out. This comports with my personal language learning experience, for what that's worth. I couldn't say whether it translates to other subjects. Full article is here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8641140/

Yeah but he is still right when you go under surface level : learning to write is basically learning to draw specific shape that have specific meanings.

It is not surprising that peoples learn to recognise those shape faster when they actually had to learn to draw them instead of just pointing (typing) to use them.

But I don't think it makes any kind of real difference to achieving proficiency level for reading/thinking/writing the language. Recognising the glyphs is a small part of learning a language, you learn grammar, vocabulary, sentence construction, idioms, mostly by repeated exposure and chances are the vast majority of it is from reading ; it wouldn't be very efficient to learn by hand writing everything...

Re: The importance of handwriting is now better understood

#153

The article makes it sound as if the benefit of handwriting vs. typing is a settled matter. But a recent metaanalysis finds no overall benefit of handwriting over typing: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0361476X2...

Yeah it makes no sense that it would. It's probably measuring secondary effects like effort put in to take the notes and tools proficiency.

Most peoples, even "digital natives" are much worse at inputting freeform information on a computer in the first place. The hardware/software to make this possible has only been recently available. Basically before tablet proliferation, free form input was a major waste of time at best ; so it has only been 10 years (barely) that you could argue the tools were sufficient. And even then it only works if you buy a sufficiently expensive tool that is sufficiently fast and precise (started making sense at first iPad Air era).

So of course, they are comparing people using a skill they had decade(s) to hone versus a skill that can only have been acquired very recently.

And I think it doesn't make sense to have pure typing vs pure handwriting, it often all the little things around the written language that help tremendously learning and recalling. The way the information is architected with various levels of "call to attention", small drawings, schemas, etc...

A handwritten wall of notes is way more useless than a typed wall of notes because at least in the second case, it's gonna be easier to restructure it and make it much more "parseable". Then again, having to re-write it would increase the time/effort spent on it and translate as a "better learning". If you matched the time/effort on the typing part I doubt you would see a difference. But the reality is that the guy who typed stuff did it for efficiency in the first place so it's more likely than he won't spend as much time re-reading the notes which of course will translate in worse learning whatever that means.

In the end all of this goes back to nonsense that learning things "by heart" is useful and a useful way to grade/rank peoples competence/capacity for comprehension. Handwriting like learning by heart is something that favors women (they are much more applied and they generally have much better handwriting) and it is not even surprising that this is pushed as truth.

Re: The importance of handwriting is now better understood

#154
post #127
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see any evidence that this is a bot post. It's the only post in the thread that actually points to scans of the Marion Richardson source materials mentioned in the parent comment. I guess it doesn't matter now, since it's been flagged… ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

You can vouch for a flagged comment and if enough do it will become legitimzed.

By vouch do you mean upvote?

Re: The importance of handwriting is now better understood

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/the-athletes-way/2... "New research from Johns Hopkins University (JHU) suggests that handwriting practice refines fine-tuned motor skills and creates a perceptual-motor experience that appears to help adults learn generalized literacy-related skills "surprisingly faster and significantly better" than if they tried to learn the same material by typing on a keyboard or watchin…

From that same link: "After six learning sessions, everyone in the video watching and type-writing group had learned the Arabic alphabet and could identify each of its 28 letters. However, people in the handwriting group—who used pen and paper to write each letter during their learning sessions—gained the same level of proficiency after just two learning sessions." Replace handwriting with any other activity. It is p…

That sounds like a pretty specific literacy skill.

Re: The importance of handwriting is now better understood

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a book linked on HN a month ago about the Deisng of UI/UX experiences. One chapter mentions how cars are simple and easy to use despite being more complex than a phone numpad, because the linkages between the car controls and your mental mapping is one-to-one. Having to endlessly recombine your mental mapping with a numpad or digital pad to generate letters/sentences is much worse for humans than driving, o…

I never made any progress learning to drive, and I still can't write legibly without carefully considering every letter. These one to one things are not easy. The pen acts like an untrained intern. It does exactly what you say and doesn't deviate from that. The computer acts as your manager. It tells you exactly what spot to hit to make a letter. I'm not sure if this is pure crackpot armchair psychology, but my theor…

I understand where you're coming from, you appear to have the ability to relate to images on your own terms, nearly completely. I do not.

I have at all times, "two sets of books" or "two maps". Unified by a singular Duty that limits what I can and can't do. My imagination is tied to imaging the next step in my 'journey'.

(something like that anyway, it has subjectivity built into it).

I cannot dump relations to random ideas, I have to understand the 'background'/'whole scene' to clear out the clutter of my imagination and keep my two frames of reference, clear.

The actual dutiful work of computer use is not that terribly difficult intellectually, it is often the kind of flower-arranging drudgery that I used to enjoy a lot in my 'youth' (lol im not that old).

I can understand one set of technologies C/C++ buut the bugs and face-slapping error chasing in programming really begins to wear quite badly.

The only way I can really program is to submit to 'someone else's ruleset' that I don't like or agree with and then endure grinding my way to how I mean it to be, based on my sense of subjective expectation and structure, hand-tied to my categorical imperative. It is possible to make elegant and powerful code like this, inside a company structure.. with uninspiring code architecture, set from the top down.

Buuuut whenever I imagine some novel technology that gets me excited, I can make shallow prototypes of the idea in existing tools and inevitably find that I need to rejig/rework the tooling to get my idea out there. And often that means editing a second set of tooling.

And every single time I have started and attempted this project, it starts off rocky-and-okay, the middle part is absolute hellish grind fighting the system and then the end is a complete drain of all my emotions and an inability to finish, leading to an internal frustation with wasted time.

Then the technology tooling all changes and I have to re-process my understanding because the semantics in the new tech stack are different to the last.

The reationships between ideas are the biggest, slowest chore that wears the most. The concepts in new languages are not terribly interesting, as most are re-arrangments of the same old music...

Every single programming language is set up in such a way that the "glue" between all the concepts, is held by an insider 'brotherhood' of experts. The documentation for plebs tells you one specific way and if you fall off the documentation's instructions, then all other ways are pain and time-wasting death. A simple map of relationships between concepts would save so many man-hours globally, it is insane (but I digress).

The devil-in-the-detail level bugs and jankiness is something only an American man with infinite pleasure - to keep his head cool and his fingers typing - could tolerate.

I'm honestly getting to the stage where I think the only reliable way to make new code, is to control the hardware from the bottom up, and do the software from the bottom up.

Every single middleware provider is another layer of shifting maps, that I have to war with, to make some new tech that works from top to bottom.

And then I'd have to release that code into an environment where my competitors can open up my assets and copy-paste out the novel bits into their own products (or minds) and jiggle the appearance of the code enough for it to look like they made it. I simply cannot do that. It is not allowed under my rules and I have the scar tissue to prove that I can't overcome my own 'programming', my own Duty.. in that regard.

Programming.. I don't think itma for me, even though my novel concepts would make a difference. The industry is just hostile for people who 'think differently' as it is colloquially said to be, but I really mean, the industry is not for people who have a subjective structure they wish to provide as a gift for organizing knowledge.

The "shape" of programming is to be that Shelf on the factory floor that everybody wars over the ever-changing maps on the Shelves. The maps fail to provide coverage of the entire, ever-changing factory itself, and are constantly updated and their meaning constantly changes.

I can not.

Re: The importance of handwriting is now better understood

#157
post #136
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> to sooth a family dispute I think you want the word "soothe" which means to calm. "Sooth" means "truth" as in "sooth-sayer."

soothe from Old English soðian ... from soð "true" (see sooth). The sense of "quiet, comfort, restore to tranquility," in reference to a person or animal, is by 1690s, via the notion of "to assuage one by asserting that what he says is true," https://www.etymonline.com/word/soothe

Sure, but we're speaking English, not Old English. In English, the (archaic) word sooth is a noun, and soothe is a verb.

Re: The importance of handwriting is now better understood

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I spent years trying to find the value others find in handwritten note taking. But it doesn’t work for me. For me, listening carefully and questioning the speaker internally and focusing intensely on the way they are speaking and visualizing the concepts works better. Handwriting interferes with that as I’m too busy rephrasing to fit into my writing rate. My memory is better than the paper at the nuances of the conce…

> But humanity so very varied I agree that the way of learning concepts is a personal preference and that humanity is varied, but this is not related of how our brain mechanisms work. If learning by writing is a human ability, it would work no matter of your personal preference. It would work for any student who tries to study with method and take notes of the lesson. Listening to lessons and learning is a romantic w…

Yes, see, this is an example of varied humanity. I found notes didn’t help me understand, and my memory for spoken words and visualized concepts is exceptional. Reading the notes I took brought no understanding and while I could find rote concepts there I didn’t understand the material. Once I stopped taking notes and learning the way I learn best I remembered the concepts and details - to this very day decades later.

What you list is what works for you - and if objectively didn’t work for me. That’s why the outliers like me get ground under. People say “clearly by my experience your experience can’t work, you must do things my way.” (Not saying you’re meaning this so directly but that’s how it gets applied at school)

I would say it’s not a preference specifically but different humans have different facility with their innate abilities. Why would we consider learning by note taking to be an undifferentiated ability but athletic abilities are differentiated? The reality is some people learn better in different ways because our brains are differentiated in their ability. Yes I learn from note taking, but not as well as through different modes because my faculties in those modes are exceptional relative to the mean. But statistical analyses of learning say I must learn better by the statistical mode, despite the fact outlier can and do exist on all the dimensions of learning modalities.

Obviously from a policy point of view they should try to teach everyone the most common ways of learning. But we also need to be able to teach to the outliers as well and how to identify who to differentiate. My daughter is different like me, so I send her to a private school that focuses on differentiated learning - and she thrives where she would have suffered like I did in public school. “No child left behind” means “no average child left behind, the outliers are ground down to be average”

Re: The importance of handwriting is now better understood

#159
post #136
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> to sooth a family dispute I think you want the word "soothe" which means to calm. "Sooth" means "truth" as in "sooth-sayer."

soothe from Old English soðian ... from soð "true" (see sooth). The sense of "quiet, comfort, restore to tranquility," in reference to a person or animal, is by 1690s, via the notion of "to assuage one by asserting that what he says is true," https://www.etymonline.com/word/soothe

Etymology is often fascinating.

Re: The importance of handwriting is now better understood

#160
post #3

I have started to journal last month. I came to it through pens when I randomly decided to find a good pen when I got interested in it through some youtube videos(wow, YT actually working as intended, for once). To anyone interested, Pentel Energel 0.7mm is the best gel pen in the entire world, hands down. For oil-based ink, it would be Uniball Jetstream, i guess(i am gel guy). I always wanted to journal and thought…

> Pentel Energel 0.7mm is the best gel pen in the entire world I love definitive reviews like this.

I agree on his choice, I took the time to test all pencils in several stationary stores in Japan. (albeit in 2008)
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