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Localization Failure: Temperature Is Hard

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Re: Localization Failure: Temperature Is Hard

#111

Post by aqme28 »

mikewarot wrote: post #5

If you want "twice as hot" to be meaningful, you have to use an absolute scale, either Kelvin or Rankine. (1 K = 1.8 °R) Doubling absolute temperature doubles the pressure (at constant volume) or volume (at constant pressure) of an ideal gas. This gets really important when it comes to compressing and expanding air and other gasses. Room temperature is approximately 293 K, twice that is 586 K / 595 °F / 313 °C. Hotte…

> We often don't realize how warm the world we live in truly is, from a physics standpoint.

Or cold? There is a big ball in our solar system sitting at tens of millions of degrees K, and you think 273 degrees is warm?

Re: Localization Failure: Temperature Is Hard

#112

Post by gus_massa »

School-Cotton wrote: post #47
chungy wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or we can just use a calculator. I'm sure most people's phones can even translate it by a voice command "What's 20 degrees Celsius in Fahrenheit?"

That will give the same wrong answer this post is discussing.

Yep https://www.google.com/search?q=%22What%27s+20+degrees+Celsi...

Re: Localization Failure: Temperature Is Hard

#113

Post by bangkoksbest »

Joker_vD wrote: post #108
mr_mitm wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need an absolute scale, you just need a sensible origin. I suggest taking human perception into account. When talking about the weather or everyday objects, one could argue that the border between "hot" and "cold" is somewhere at room temperature, so around 21°C. At that temperature, it's neither hot or cold. If it's 30°C, it's 9°C of "hotness", so 39°C would be twice as hot. I don't know if it feels twice…

Water-freezing temperature is an absolutely sensible zero. The difference between e.g. 2 °C and -2 °C is really quite obvious for the exposed skin: while it's merely "yeah, it's cold" feeling when it's above zero, it almost feel like the frost is biting , almost literally, when it's below zero.

This is not true, and it's why we developed separate scales for wind chill (which factors in wind) and heat index (which factors humidity).

Looking at the wind chill chart[0] for frostbite times, there is nothing particularly special around the freezing point temperature, even at absurd wind speeds. Ironically, actually, the 0 point for Fahrenheit is far more relevant threshold for frostbite.

[0] https://www.weather.gov/safety/cold-wind-chill-chart

Re: Localization Failure: Temperature Is Hard

#114

Post by Amorymeltzer »

perilunar wrote: post #3

Hard? So is using the degree symbol apparently: not a single one in the whole article. (68F is not a temperature — it’s a seat number.) https://degreeswhat.com/?68

Way back in high school precalculus, I had a particularly hard (and hard-ass) teacher. I generally scored in the 85-95 range, but one exam I was shocked to get a grade in the 60s. When I asked the teacher about it they pointed out that since I hadn't written my angles with the degree symbol (e.g. 45˚) that meant they were in radians, and thus very (very) wrong.

Never did that again.

Re: Localization Failure: Temperature Is Hard

#115

Post by School-Cotton »

Sharlin wrote: post #90
School-Cotton wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did say native English speakers, but regardless, the point stands that the US is an extremely important market for any media targeting itself to the broader Anglosphere.

If you included non-native speakers, the stats would be much more lopsided than nearly 50:50.

You're absolutely right and I concede that I misspoke initially. However, I think the main thrust of my point is correct: that the US represents a huge chunk of the Guardian's target audience and therefore suggesting that the Guardian not localize its articles for Americans is absurd.

Re: Localization Failure: Temperature Is Hard

#116

Post by _Microft »

lynguist wrote: post #40
mikewarot wrote: post #5

If you want "twice as hot" to be meaningful, you have to use an absolute scale, either Kelvin or Rankine. (1 K = 1.8 °R) Doubling absolute temperature doubles the pressure (at constant volume) or volume (at constant pressure) of an ideal gas. This gets really important when it comes to compressing and expanding air and other gasses. Room temperature is approximately 293 K, twice that is 586 K / 595 °F / 313 °C. Hotte…

Twice as hot is also useful in Celsius. For every increase of 10C chemical reactions happen twice as fast, it will literally, thermodynamically be twice as hot. Which will probably even match your subjective feeling. Celsius scales thermodynamically logarithmically. You can’t just double the numbers. (The same with sound etc.)

The Celsius scale is an "interval scale" while the Kelvin scale is a "ratio scale". One cannot take ratios of Celsius temperature values as ratios are not even defined for that. It’s possible for differences of temperatures on the Celsius scale, though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Level_of_measurement

Re: Localization Failure: Temperature Is Hard

#117

Post by _Microft »

mr_mitm wrote: post #14
mikewarot wrote: post #5

If you want "twice as hot" to be meaningful, you have to use an absolute scale, either Kelvin or Rankine. (1 K = 1.8 °R) Doubling absolute temperature doubles the pressure (at constant volume) or volume (at constant pressure) of an ideal gas. This gets really important when it comes to compressing and expanding air and other gasses. Room temperature is approximately 293 K, twice that is 586 K / 595 °F / 313 °C. Hotte…

You don't need an absolute scale, you just need a sensible origin. I suggest taking human perception into account. When talking about the weather or everyday objects, one could argue that the border between "hot" and "cold" is somewhere at room temperature, so around 21°C. At that temperature, it's neither hot or cold. If it's 30°C, it's 9°C of "hotness", so 39°C would be twice as hot. I don't know if it feels twice…

To take ratios you need an absolute zero because otherwise ratios aren‘t even defined.

See also my other comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37928268

Re: Localization Failure: Temperature Is Hard

#118

Post by katbyte »

bangkoksbest wrote: post #113
Joker_vD wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Water-freezing temperature is an absolutely sensible zero. The difference between e.g. 2 °C and -2 °C is really quite obvious for the exposed skin: while it's merely "yeah, it's cold" feeling when it's above zero, it almost feel like the frost is biting , almost literally, when it's below zero.

This is not true, and it's why we developed separate scales for wind chill (which factors in wind) and heat index (which factors humidity). Looking at the wind chill chart[0] for frostbite times, there is nothing particularly special around the freezing point temperature, even at absurd wind speeds. Ironically, actually, the 0 point for Fahrenheit is far more relevant threshold for frostbite. [0] https://www.weather.…

Neither of those are as important as “when water freezes” (ice snow weather effects), boils, and having a nice 100d in between

Re: Localization Failure: Temperature Is Hard

#119

Post by katbyte »

master-lincoln wrote: post #53
mgaunard wrote: post #33

It's not hard at all, the localization team just made a mistake. The solution is to not localize for Americans.

Maybe it helps to push for Murica to finally adapt SI units. All American countries outside the USA already use °C https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/references/weights-an...

Pretty much ALL countries use C - 97% of people on the planet use C

C is the global standard

Re: Localization Failure: Temperature Is Hard

#120

Post by katbyte »

Moru wrote: post #72
School-Cotton wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe it helps to push for Murica to finally adapt SI units. Nitpick: Celsius is not an SI unit. Answering the substantive point: it’d be nice if we switched to SI units (plus Celsius); personally my phone is already set to display those and I wish we’d join the rest of the world and do standard stuff. However, I think it’s extremely unlikely to ever happen. The deadlocked US political system makes it impossible to…

It's on the way :-) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metrication_in_the_United_Stat...

And it was ok the way and if regan hadn’t canceled it America would have switched around the same time Canada did
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