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Small business owners say they're pressured to hire off-duty cops for security

minnesotareformer.com

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Re: Small business owners say they're pressured to hire off-duty cops for security

#491

Post by phatskat »

Almondsetat wrote: post #372
llbeansandrice wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> without anyone offering a clear, compelling alternative approach to public safety and deterring crime. This really just betrays that you were not paying attention beyond the tagline. Multiple cities have already implemented trial programs to replace police services with mental health and EMT professionals to wild success. Denver has the STAR program [0] and I'm aware of a similar program in New Orleans and I'm sure…

Your reply has a big claim, namely that they have had a "wild success". Instead of giving sources for this claim you provided us with contextual information that proves nothing

I don’t have sources readily available but several programs across the country have reallocated parts of their police budgets to mental health crisis services, among other things, to seemingly good success.

There are also places that tried defunding and then quietly voted for _more_ budget for policing.

Here’s a good follow up on what Defund the Police led to: https://youtu.be/3irrROBg7Sg?si=MRDyPOEC2q0SR13O

Re: Small business owners say they're pressured to hire off-duty cops for security

#492

Post by phatskat »

0xDEAFBEAD wrote: post #384
llbeansandrice wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> without anyone offering a clear, compelling alternative approach to public safety and deterring crime. This really just betrays that you were not paying attention beyond the tagline. Multiple cities have already implemented trial programs to replace police services with mental health and EMT professionals to wild success. Denver has the STAR program [0] and I'm aware of a similar program in New Orleans and I'm sure…

>Multiple cities have already implemented trial programs to replace police services with mental health and EMT professionals to wild success. That's chill, but it doesn't seem nearly as radical as the "abolish the police" slogan? What fraction of police calls have been replaced with mental health/EMT calls in these cities? Suppose someone is suspected of using a counterfeit $20 bill -- does Denver now call a mental h…

> That's chill, but it doesn't seem nearly as radical as the "abolish the police" slogan? What fraction of police calls have been replaced with mental health/EMT calls in these cities?

Since we’re talking about defunding, not abolishing, what’s your point?

And that fraction depends on the municipality - it varies from program to program.

Re: Small business owners say they're pressured to hire off-duty cops for security

#493

Post by phatskat »

VirusNewbie wrote: post #367
0xDEAFBEAD wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's astonishing the degree to which the public tolerates such forms of ineptitude and subversion – it has a direct impact on everyone's bottom line. The George Floyd protests were huge. I don't think it's a simple matter of the public being too complacent. I'd say that insofar as the protests were unsuccessful, it's because their energy wasn't being directed strategically. There was so much discussion of "defunding…

I think your idea has many flaws, but I am very surprised and happy to see novel approaches here, and it absolutely represents my favorite part of HackerNews. Probably the reason policing is sub optimal is due to the fact that it is funded by the city, so more prosperous areas can pay more, and recruit the best cops, while the areas with less income often can't pay as well, (or enough to offset the risks). Compare th…

> Compare this to schooling, where it's largely funded through the county, so the county often pays less in the nicer areas, knowing the job is easier.

Most school funding comes through property taxes - it’s a nice way to avoid saying “we’re funding schools in poorer areas using fewer resources” while saying absolutely that.

Re: Small business owners say they're pressured to hire off-duty cops for security

#494

Post by phatskat »

mschuster91 wrote: post #311
FireBeyond wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds so far from the realm of being in anyway necessary, and not just outright racketeering that you/your friend should contact local media, the DOJ or both.

Or it's because too many drone pilots were more than obnoxious. I'm a drone pilot myself and there's no way some of the shots on r/drones are even remotely close to being legal.

I don’t think they’re requiring officers to be hired to make sure the operator isn’t breaking the law.

Re: Small business owners say they're pressured to hire off-duty cops for security

#495

Post by TrueSlacker0 »

mattmaroon wrote: post #119

I plan live events these days and the off duty cop shakedown is so real. Good luck getting really any permit. “Oh you’re hiring private security? We don’t think your security plan is sufficient to keep everyone safe.”

I guess I live in a different world. I have run multiple large beer events. (4 or 5,000ppl at the last one) These get approved by our city and state. All I have ever been asked is if we have a security plan, not any details, just that one exists. And it's sort of in passing, usually after the we need a copy of your insurance requirement. There were not any requirements to hire an officer. I still choose to hire 3 off duty officers but that is my choice as the event host. I also call them individually as I have met many of them over time and they are worth every penny. They aren't even expensive compared to other services required.

Re: Small business owners say they're pressured to hire off-duty cops for security

#496

Post by phatskat »

tomschlick wrote: post #392
the_why_of_y wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's still a class A misdemeanor though and they will arrest you for it. Just like in California. https://www.courts.ca.gov/documents/Prop47FAQs.pdf

That may be the law, but prosecutors aren't prosecuting them as evidenced by the people clearing out CVS with garbage bags daily.

> people clearing out CVS with garbage bags daily.

Citation needed

Re: Small business owners say they're pressured to hire off-duty cops for security

#497

Post by phatskat »

billy99k wrote: post #284
burnished wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should look into overpolicing and how it impacts those summary statistics; in brief if you look you will find someone breaking a law but bad behavior in one group gets ignored as an exception whereas in another group each incident is treated as emblematic and needing strong corrective action. In my experience both groups are full of pretty similar young men, which makes questions like yours pretty obviously loade…

"You should look into over policing and how it impacts those summary statistics" This may have been the case 10 years ago, but we have started defunding the police in many major cities. Have we seen a change in crime stats? "if you look you will find someone breaking a law but bad behavior in one group gets ignored as an exception whereas in another group each incident is treated as emblematic and needing strong corr…

> we have started defunding the police in many major cities

Have we? https://youtu.be/3irrROBg7Sg?si=MRDyPOEC2q0SR13O

Re: Small business owners say they're pressured to hire off-duty cops for security

#498

Post by soco »

8note wrote: post #290
soco wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what is the role of police here. If their role is to extort citizens I see no reason to keep them around. Or you think corrupt cops also protect some neighborhoods? Maybe for a nice price? I can rent my own thugs instead and I bet they'd be cheaper.

The benefit of having cops vs your own thugs is that the cops don't get you in trouble when they kill somebody on your behalf

I cannot imagine any real-life situation where police or thugs would need to kill "on my behalf". Armed terrorists shooting at people can be shot down already without much complications, and all the rest can and should be arrested.

Re: Small business owners say they're pressured to hire off-duty cops for security

#499

Post by a-french-anon »

pkulak wrote: post #475
cvccvroomvroom wrote: post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another reason why I left California. You can't buy a Canik's as a non-LEO. Also, criminals get whatever guns they want and carry them while law-abiding citizens can't do anything except wish not to be mugged or murdered with strong objections. It's completely absurd given how violent America is.

So, just so I understand, bad guys all have guns. And you wish you could have one too, for protection against said bad guys. But why is a firefight preferable to a mugging?

There's that little something called "dignity". You know, trying to do something about your situation instead of rolling over and praying for the meanies to be lenient with you.

Re: Small business owners say they're pressured to hire off-duty cops for security

#500

Post by mensetmanusman »

slipperlobster wrote: post #165
rjmunro wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the UK, I believe that if you organise a large event that needs police coverage, you pay the Police force to provide on-duty officers. This seems a lot less open to corruption because it would be based on a standard price list that was public, and the officers received the same as they would doing any other duties. I know that's how it worked at some events my Dad organised in the 90s. I can't find anything about…

Oh, hey, I'm not saying off-duty police officers can't do side gigs. I'm more questioning them using publicly funded resources and authority to do so. Anyone can try to direct traffic, but cops are paid to do it because they get the car and flashing lights (and I assume the ability to ticket/arrest violations) while still collecting side money. It'd sort of be like me using my company's laptop/servers for side work,…

You would have to prove that trained non-off-duty citizens were prevented from supporting, otherwise you would implement a policy where you shrink the number of people that can take said position and that increases cost for tax payers.
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