France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations

> Most left but some were forcefully expelled. Then, not allowed to return (like the people of Al-Majdal (Ashkelon), a holy place for Shia' muslims, as one example).

Yes. On the other hand there's the story of the residence of Haifa where the local Jews begged the local Arabs to stay. To this day it's an integrated city.

I was mostly talking about the annexation of the territories. Israel did annex the Golan Heights after the 67 war since its population is relatively small.

> Speaking as a non-Israeli, the only destruction I see is that of the Palestinians. tbh, the Oslo Accords and the Mandate is destroying Palestinians more than it is destroying the idea of Zion... so if I was a Zionist, I'd say things are working as planned.

I think the original Oslo accord was planned to work for both sides. What exists now is a corruption of the original idea meant to "keep the peace".

> To me, the constant oppression from one side and the retaliatory and heinous struggle from the other side is even more fucked up.

I agree and many of the Palestinians I know are in the tech industry. I think education and a booming middle class will help.

Unfortunately, as they are now this is too far off. In terms of values the median Palestinian is FAR more religious and conservative. There's a lot of seriously crazy people there. That's the main reason Egypt refuses to let anyone in. It isn't something that can be realistically assimilated.

> > I doubt it will still be a democracy even for us when the dust settles... > Why do you say so? Or, you mean the far-right will gather more support?

The prime minister has been under indictment for a while now. He is a terrible demagogue. The worst kind. He used the extreme far right to take over the government and is slowly dismantling the checks and balances over the democracy.

This caught him in the middle of that. I do believe he actually planned for this to happen, he just didn't realize how terrible it would be. Typically, right-wing leaders use strife to strengthen their position and attack dissent. It's already something his people are doing by blaming the people who demonstrated against him, claiming we weakened the country...

I think he will assume emergency powers and will use them to circumvent democracy. There are already signs e.g. a recent attempt to curtail free speech etc.

> > 2M human shields to hide behind this can stretch for years... > Sucks for the Gazans, most of whom are kids

Yes. One positive note that came out the other day was that the military showed off its situation room where they showed a system that helps them track the population via cell phone broadcasts. Not accurate but that gives them a sense of where the population is. They apparently use this to aim bombings into areas that aren't populated.

It's still horrible, but at least some effort is going into minimizing civilian impact.

> It is liberal except for when it comes to the treatment of Palestinians, it'd seem?

The Palestinians aren't a part of Israel. So yes.

> Almost as if Israel wants to have the cake and eat it too.

This is the exact problem. Israeli governments wanted the control but didn't want the annexation which would reduce the Jewish majority.

To be fair, it's hard to know what needs to be done here. There was no prior country that can be rebuilt. Since Arafat there has been no singular leader who can demonstrate control/unity. Even he was pretty problematic.

Most Israelis look at this as: we tried to give them a country and they kept sending suicide bombers/rockets. This is a bit distorted since it looks at the Palestinian people as a single mass. The problem is their lack of leadership. The reason they have weak leadership is due to the Israeli right wing which sabotaged that leadership.

> EU emerged from a heinous war in less than 50 years by tearing down borders.

The differences between the countries in the EU are relatively small. They are all of the same religion and were all liberal democracies before seeking unity.

I don't think we can culturally assimilate. Even within the current Arab population in Israel we see things like violence towards women (honor killings) etc. It might go away as our society becomes more homogeneous but it will take a generational shift.

> I see that Palestine will always be at a disadvantage

I think the right thing is separate states. Historically, forcing unification created strife and violence. But I do think Israel has a duty and an interest in the success of the Palestinian people.

If they will have a thriving middle class and good education they will be less likely to seek violence. I hope the US will demand something like the Marshal plan, to rebuild Gaza but also help structure it. I don't know if this will work though. They failed pretty badly in Afghanistan and Iraq.

> What exists now is a corruption of the original idea meant to "keep the peace".

True. I imagine Israeli making a farce of this well-meaning peace treaty (more so in Hebron and Jerusalem) is why it is hard for Palestine to trust Israel on any more peace-keeping measures.

> ...local Jews begged the local Arabs to stay.

I think Israelis should work towards a policy that, for once, favours the Palestines (but unfortunately, the incentives have never been there as Israel effectively has won every battle and war).

> In terms of values the median Palestinian is FAR more religious and conservative.

I live in a country where conservatives and liberals co-exist just fine. Israel's biggest ally is a country that has survived just fine. I understand the fear however.

> There's a lot of seriously crazy people there.

The Oleh doesn't discriminate between orthodox and non-observing Jews? Not saying the Orthodox are "crazy", but unlikely they support, for instance, a yearly pride parade at the Western Wall.

> That's the main reason Egypt refuses to let anyone in. It isn't something that can be realistically assimilated.

I believe, they just don't trust Israel. There are scores of refugees in Lebanon and Jordan who aren't allowed to return. Israel is as much Levantine as Jordan and Lebanon, while I'd argue, Egypt isn't.

> To be fair, it's hard to know what needs to be done here. There was no prior country that can be rebuilt.

Yep: So, just Israel, and the Israeli citizens of Palestine. Or: A federal government can be worked out? But there's nothing I feel (other than the situation like in 1973) that would bring the Israeli government to this compromise.

> The reason they have weak leadership is due to the Israeli right wing which sabotaged that leadership.

What's their end-goal, though? imo, this goal should inform the International support (for or against) Israeli aggression (wars, settlements, discrimination, barriers, etc) against these stateless people. And if this goal is henious, then it behooves Israeli liberals to speak up, because right now, everyone else who does is being cancelled in the name of crimes the Axis power were party to.

> It's still horrible, but at least some effort is going into minimizing civilian impact.

I can see why that is okay with the Israelis (large-scale surveillance, using autonomous weapons are also okay when it comes to Palestinians), but I also see de-humanization, which is what worries me more than anything else.

> The differences between the countries in the EU are relatively small. They are all of the same religion and were all liberal democracies before seeking unity.

Point.

> I don't think we can culturally assimilate.

btw, I don't see any resemblance between the Turkic and the Celtic peoples, or the Iberian and the Slavic peoples, or the Scandinavians and the Greeks. So differences do need to be put aside (:

> It might go away as our society becomes more homogeneous but it will take a generational shift.

Another reason why I think that assimilation instead of alienation with Israelis is the best way forward for the Palestine people.

> They failed pretty badly in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Those are massive territories unlike Gaza and WB. Hopefully, long-term view prevails, despite the designs of the military (or, if one prefers: terrorists) on both sides. You pointed out that PLO already gave up arms in good faith... and it is most likely the militant wing of Hamas wouldn't exist post this war... A chance (again) for Israel to be as benevolent as it can muster up to be and take drastic (not comprised) measures towards peace. A man can dream.

How're you sitting with this one today? Got a clear idea what hamas did to make israel bomb a hospital?

That comparison doesn't fit because the Jews in Germany didn't want to exterminate Germans. That was Nazi propaganda. Perhaps that perspective survived from the closeness of Hitler with the Mufti.

> Unfortunately, this eroded away with the occupation. Most of us don't remember a time of co-existence.

Hebron has proven that much.

> The moderate/liberal element has grown tired by the robbery conducted by the hasidic jews and the fact that religious settlers are forcing us into redundant conflicts with the Palestinians

Sad that this in turn seeds more divide.

> There's an attack on Israeli settlements, so we'll build even more settlements to "show them"

I saw on Israeli twitter (https://twitter.com/EliramE/status/1711747425398919667) from someone claiming to be "friends with many Arabs" that the Palestine people wouldn't sell their land even when offered millions of dollars (I presume, such deals are the norm for East Jerusalem?). That's a level of resolve I have not known. So, I can see where the "teach them" part comes from: displacement as a means of shame for the Palestine people seems like a valid view.

> Jews wouldn't live in Hebron without being religious extremists.

Just them wouldn't be so bad, but from what I read, the IDF is on the act, too?

> They don't yell "death to Arabs" or anything like that publicly

After the deplorable massacre on 7th, it seems like (from observing Israeli tech twitter) that there is prevalence of Islamophobia (ex: https://archive.is/9PV2e) possibly amongst moderates (and liberals alike)? All in the open, for now at least, while emotions run high (of course, antisemitism is rife within Muslims when it comes to this conflict, but even folks who aren't, are generally very angry at Israel continuing to move the Immovable Ladder in Jerusalem, in Hebron, in Judea, in Samaria with every passing day).

> Notice that there are the crazier Nazi level players.

Sigh. Such irony just writes itself.

> Israeli liberals speak up a lot.

Glad. I sincerely hope they haven't changed their views post Oct 7, and continue to take a long-term non-violent view.

> Organizations like BDS which tries to blacklist Israel end up even worse.

Social Media is making it even more worse. In fact, I am terrified of liking a wrong tweet, or writing something stupid here... What a time to be alive where anyone can get cancelled.

> Both Palestinians and Israelis aren't for this in very large numbers.

This makes the situation in the West Bank even more idiotic from the Israeli PoV. I read that if Israel orders evacuation, settlers are not entitled to compensation (like Gaza and Sinai settlers were)? So, this can still be undone, though, I suspect armed-settlers would to make this a riot-free affair.

> Getting the communities to "buy into" a cultural shift would be hard.

I guess, the current brouhaha in the Arab world rallying around (dubious) hospital bombing (most likely planted by Hamas) should inform Israel that a majority of the 2b muslims are watching and they won't like war because in this charged conflict it doesn't matter who's righteous / evil anymore (given years of misgivings and mutual distrust). Manufacturing consent from the West matters not if there is no appetite for a multi-front war.

Gone are the days when celebrities and prominent political figure heads would "sign a document" in show of support and everyone in their sphere of influence would rally behind them. With the rise of influencers (and disinformation factories), this tactic is done for, for worse or for good. I think had the Israelis waged a "smaller war" (like in 2014), they'd not have triggered such attention. And they can count on getting away with displacement, discrimination, and siege too, like forever. In which case, they'd have to continue to perfect the Iron Wall and continue to work towards fully-autonomous weapons and war machines as deterrence. This outcome would of course suck for Palestine.