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Google opens Falcon, a reliable low-latency hardware transport, to the ecosystem

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41–50 of 158 posts

Re: Google opens Falcon, a reliable low-latency hardware transport, to the ecosystem

#41

I don’t understand networking all that well. Is it interesting that the telcos and non-tech companies are moving away from specialized hardware toward software defined networks while the hyperscalers are using hardware acceleration?

Nobody wants to depend on hardware development cycle hence “fuck it, ill do it in software”

Re: Google opens Falcon, a reliable low-latency hardware transport, to the ecosystem

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Another random example is HTTP/3, which is basically the "What's best for Google" protocol. HTTP/2 is that. The version 3 is... quite great, and not really originary from there. And gRPC is some self-contained thing that doesn't bother anybody. I do really agree with your point. But those examples are bad, and yet another non-standard cloud service isn't also a good example.

For example, HTTP/3 uses QPACK, which has a static predefined list of HTTP header strings included in the standard. What strings you ask? The top hits Google captured from their data centre egress. E.g.: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-quic-qpack-20.htm... Notice that "content-encoding" includes br (Brotli), a Google compression algorithm that essentially only they were using at the time.

I don't understand what the objection is to the methodology. Are you claiming there is another party that has a better sample (even subjectively so) and was pushing it and didn't succeed? If anything, standards committees are often overly annoying and biased the other way just because some other company representative wants to justify their presence. That is also cherry picked. For example standardizing ALPN over NPN which is largely a downgrade for the average user done in the standard process. The examples you use simply indicate a certain company is ahead of the game in solving problems others also have.

Re: Google opens Falcon, a reliable low-latency hardware transport, to the ecosystem

#43

Oh, I was hoping this would be something built more directly over Ethernet, rather than on top of UDP/IP (if I'm understanding the layer diagram correctly). I've been working with Ethernet devices a lot lately, using the network as a communication bus, essentially. I find that there's a lot of complexity that we simply don't need: ARP, DHCP, DNS... So many points of failure. We know all the devices on our LAN and the…

[deleted]

Re: Google opens Falcon, a reliable low-latency hardware transport, to the ecosystem

#44

I don’t understand networking all that well. Is it interesting that the telcos and non-tech companies are moving away from specialized hardware toward software defined networks while the hyperscalers are using hardware acceleration?

Nobody wants to depend on hardware development cycle hence “fuck it, ill do it in software”

I don't think it's that hard to rely on hardware development, it's more of a problem of rolling out a fleet of new hardware.

It's just not realistic to take all the switches, routers, and other garbage you've got in between points in the network off the rack/ceiling/wall/pole because the hardware can't support some protocol.

Good evidence for this is the rollout of fiber, which has been happening neighborhood by neighborhood and house by house for a decade.

Re: Google opens Falcon, a reliable low-latency hardware transport, to the ecosystem

#45

Oh, I was hoping this would be something built more directly over Ethernet, rather than on top of UDP/IP (if I'm understanding the layer diagram correctly). I've been working with Ethernet devices a lot lately, using the network as a communication bus, essentially. I find that there's a lot of complexity that we simply don't need: ARP, DHCP, DNS... So many points of failure. We know all the devices on our LAN and the…

“Layers are only ever added, not removed.” This is a long read but you might find it enjoyable: https://apenwarr.ca/log/20170810

Adding is favoured over subtracting in problem solving

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/350711603_Adding_is...

Re: Google opens Falcon, a reliable low-latency hardware transport, to the ecosystem

#46

Oh, I was hoping this would be something built more directly over Ethernet, rather than on top of UDP/IP (if I'm understanding the layer diagram correctly). I've been working with Ethernet devices a lot lately, using the network as a communication bus, essentially. I find that there's a lot of complexity that we simply don't need: ARP, DHCP, DNS... So many points of failure. We know all the devices on our LAN and the…

But you can't route MACs... you can't associate domain names to MACs...

Maybe for a LAN that's fine, but for connecting devices between broadcast domains, it just doesn't cut it.

Re: Google opens Falcon, a reliable low-latency hardware transport, to the ecosystem

#47
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody wants to depend on hardware development cycle hence “fuck it, ill do it in software”

I don't think it's that hard to rely on hardware development, it's more of a problem of rolling out a fleet of new hardware. It's just not realistic to take all the switches, routers, and other garbage you've got in between points in the network off the rack/ceiling/wall/pole because the hardware can't support some protocol. Good evidence for this is the rollout of fiber, which has been happening neighborhood by neig…

I was mainly talking about your own dc but yes if you need to traverse public infra it’s a complete non-starter. But also it’s not like middle boxes offer you any sort of sdn api - you still need to overlay

Re: Google opens Falcon, a reliable low-latency hardware transport, to the ecosystem

#48

I was confused by the reference to “lossy” networks in this page. Does this have a different meaning in this context than something like lossy compression where data is actually discarded?

All networks are “lossy” because any cable can be cut, etc.

A “lossy” protocol is one that doesn’t attempt to compensate for that. In most cases, but not all, that means a higher level protocol will need to ensure that every bit of data has made it through. (An example protocol that might not care is one for watching broadcast TV on the Internet… if you miss a few seconds it’s not a big deal).

Re: Google opens Falcon, a reliable low-latency hardware transport, to the ecosystem

#49
post #46

Oh, I was hoping this would be something built more directly over Ethernet, rather than on top of UDP/IP (if I'm understanding the layer diagram correctly). I've been working with Ethernet devices a lot lately, using the network as a communication bus, essentially. I find that there's a lot of complexity that we simply don't need: ARP, DHCP, DNS... So many points of failure. We know all the devices on our LAN and the…

But you can't route MACs... you can't associate domain names to MACs... Maybe for a LAN that's fine, but for connecting devices between broadcast domains, it just doesn't cut it.

Why though? You can't route MAC because... ? Because ipv4 provides a higher entropy address? Because MAC is self-assigned and reduplication would require a higher level system? or just because we just don't use MAC addresses that way?

I'm certain there are reasons IP came to live alongside/on top of MAC, but saying you can't do multi-hop routing with it just isn't true. If all the technologies of the Internet were reset tomorrow, how might you design the perfect layer 2 addressing and routing system?

Re: Google opens Falcon, a reliable low-latency hardware transport, to the ecosystem

#50
post #46

Oh, I was hoping this would be something built more directly over Ethernet, rather than on top of UDP/IP (if I'm understanding the layer diagram correctly). I've been working with Ethernet devices a lot lately, using the network as a communication bus, essentially. I find that there's a lot of complexity that we simply don't need: ARP, DHCP, DNS... So many points of failure. We know all the devices on our LAN and the…

But you can't route MACs... you can't associate domain names to MACs... Maybe for a LAN that's fine, but for connecting devices between broadcast domains, it just doesn't cut it.

The subject area is likely not just a LAN, but a subnet connecting a single rack, basically one physical segment. HPC, not cloud.

Because else you need ARP, IP, UDP, TCP, etc.

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