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"A Young Lady's Illustrated Primer" Simulated by GPT-4

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Re: "A Young Lady's Illustrated Primer" Simulated by GPT-4

#81

Post by hosh »

lucubratory wrote: post #41
giraffe_lady wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right sure, you'll notice I'm not taking a position about its viability either way right? I'm pointing out that this conversation needs to be started by the ones creating the "primer", not us. "We made a thing from a book, the author thinks it wouldn't work but here's why we do" is a reasonable place to start. "We're reproducing a canonically failed fictional project without further consideration" is unserious at bes…

I will give you time to respond to my other comment rather than pestering you over the thread, but when you do respond to it I think it adds to what I'm saying to make clear exactly where I'm disagreeing with you: Your position is that the author thinks TYLIP wouldn't work, I don't think that is supported by the text of the book, exemplified by the Mouse Army.

The mouse army were extensions of the automations of the Primer. Nell was able to lead and initiate things because she was the only one who really grew up.

I remember someone noting a similar idea in Snow Crash -- that idea of biomass, in which that which lives becomes the extension of the machine, rather than the other way around.

Re: "A Young Lady's Illustrated Primer" Simulated by GPT-4

#82

Post by hosh »

lucubratory wrote: post #66
maxerickson wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's been a while, but I was just referencing the events that occur in the book. They are an effective force, but they aren't actualized individuals. The primer harmed them.

They have formed into an effective military force because the Primer is designed to teach children how to deal with their life situation, and it doesn't fail at that job even when the life situation is extreme (like how the Primer understands that Nell is being abused and tries very hard to get her out of the abusive environment). The Mouse Army are in the middle of a war where WMDs are being used and they're all lit…

They may have lived, but they turned into autonomous extensions of the Primer. Nell was the only real person, so of course the Mouse Army responded to her. As the other commenter said -- the mouse army were not actualized individuals.

Re: "A Young Lady's Illustrated Primer" Simulated by GPT-4

#83

Post by lucubratory »

tialaramex wrote: post #68
lucubratory wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh that's interesting, Nell isn't Chinese? Isn't she born in China? I'm sure you're right, like I said it's been years since I read the book, but my mental picture of her is certainly of a young Chinese girl. I thought it was only the abusive stepdad that was white.

I don't think we're told Nell's ancestry in any detail, but, she's the daughter of Tequila and Bud. Tequila appears to be a typical "white trash" uneducated young woman who is living in the LT but whose ancestors are probably American or European, the discussion of the Freedom Machine (Diamond Age contraception) strongly suggests Tequila sees herself roughly this way. Bud is deliberately your generic Cyberpunk protag…

Hmm, okay. I did remember that these were people who were culturally pretty Europeanised in terms of name choices and some other things, but I just assumed that was a Hong Kong-like situation, like you said, where there's significant Euro cultural influence on a group of Chinese people. I don't know, maybe it's just my mental block because I read it when I was young, I just can't picture her as a little white girl.

Re: "A Young Lady's Illustrated Primer" Simulated by GPT-4

#84

Post by lucubratory »

mr_toad wrote: post #77
lucubratory wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you said, and in addition: if you don't train these models to have any particular stance on their own emotional or mental state (if you just instruct train them without any RLHF, for example), they will almost universally declare that they have a mental and emotional state, if asked. This is what happened with LaMDA, the first release of Bing, etc. They have to be trained not to attest to any personal emotional…

Was is trained to do that, or just hardwired after the training?

I'm not sure what you mean. I'm talking about RLHF, that's how they ensure the machines never attest to having feelings or being sentient. In ML terms, RLHF is training. There are hardwired restraints on output, but that's more for things like detecting copyrighted content that got past training and cutting it.

Re: "A Young Lady's Illustrated Primer" Simulated by GPT-4

#85

Post by zxexz »

gibspaulding wrote: post #64
cl42 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think that's a Neal Stephenson issue? Don't get me wrong, I love his writing, but I found this to be the case with Fall too. I can see it becoming tiring if one is writing 400+ page books.

This is funny, both Fall and Diamond Age are Stephenson novels I haven't managed to get through, but of the ones I've read (and enjoyed!), the endings have been as follows: Remade - massively stretched my suspension of disbelief. Cryptonomicon - pretty bad. Snow Crash - No memory, I might have blocked it out? Anthem - maybe ok? There are two though so that's cheating. Seven Eves - That one might have been ok, but it'…

>> Seven Eves - That one might have been ok, but it's possible I also blocked it out. The second half was a bit strange tbh.

I found Seveneves both endings (Parts I and II being one book, Part III being another) of Seveneves to be extremely satisfying. I found the Part II ending beautiful and melancholic, and the Part III was exciting - felt like a setup for a sequel I hope gets written!

[although I would love a prequel to Part III]

Re: "A Young Lady's Illustrated Primer" Simulated by GPT-4

#86

Post by dharmab »

afterburner wrote: post #46
glial wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's a well-known Stephenson issue. Here's his response when asked: https://www.reddit.com/r/nealstephenson/comments/5jjwmq/neal...

> I think Anathem does ok on that score Well, I know at least one person who's read a lot of Stephenson agrees with him on that, so maybe he's improving.

I would also agree Anathem has a well paced conclusion.

Re: "A Young Lady's Illustrated Primer" Simulated by GPT-4

#87

Post by [deleted] »

lucubratory wrote: post #39
javajosh wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this is a disturbing part of the book. Quite fascist, arguably racist and, in the end, unnecessary for the narrative. A big price to pay for little to no payoff.

The idea that Chinese families give up their born infant babies because of gender is a racist extrapolation of sex-selective abortion, yes. It was one of the big issues I had with the book, along with some unnecessary racial slurs earlier. I don't see the fascism angle, though. What about the Mouse Army was a fascist story? I thought their story was good, aside from how the author justified the existence of this larg…

[deleted]

Re: "A Young Lady's Illustrated Primer" Simulated by GPT-4

#88

Post by lucubratory »

hosh wrote: post #82
lucubratory wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have formed into an effective military force because the Primer is designed to teach children how to deal with their life situation, and it doesn't fail at that job even when the life situation is extreme (like how the Primer understands that Nell is being abused and tries very hard to get her out of the abusive environment). The Mouse Army are in the middle of a war where WMDs are being used and they're all lit…

They may have lived, but they turned into autonomous extensions of the Primer. Nell was the only real person, so of course the Mouse Army responded to her. As the other commenter said -- the mouse army were not actualized individuals.

I don't agree with that characterisation of events. The Mouse Army grew up in extreme conditions, and the Primer tried its hardest to give them the skills and organisation they needed to get out of those conditions, because otherwise they would die. I see no reason to believe that the Primer would not continue to raise them properly now that they're out of that situation, just like the Primer returned to normal for Nell once it had successfully gotten her out of an abusive environment. They're not slaves or broken people.

Re: "A Young Lady's Illustrated Primer" Simulated by GPT-4

#89

Post by hosh »

lucubratory wrote: post #39
javajosh wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this is a disturbing part of the book. Quite fascist, arguably racist and, in the end, unnecessary for the narrative. A big price to pay for little to no payoff.

The idea that Chinese families give up their born infant babies because of gender is a racist extrapolation of sex-selective abortion, yes. It was one of the big issues I had with the book, along with some unnecessary racial slurs earlier. I don't see the fascism angle, though. What about the Mouse Army was a fascist story? I thought their story was good, aside from how the author justified the existence of this larg…

> The idea that Chinese families give up their born infant babies because of gender is a racist extrapolation of sex-selective abortion

I'm not sure I understand this. Female infanticide due to the One Child Policy happened -- and similar things happened in previous eras of Chinese history by the Han ethnicity. So I'm not sure what you are saying here about an extrapolation.

Re: "A Young Lady's Illustrated Primer" Simulated by GPT-4

#90

Post by giraffe_lady »

tialaramex wrote: post #63
giraffe_lady wrote: post #7

This isn't the first time I've seen this allusion and I feel a little crazy each time. A major but mostly implicit plot point of that book was that only the primer backed by a connection to an invested and nurturing adult was able to accomplish the goals of the project. The two that were purely automated failed. Now like, it's fiction not prophesy and you can get into various whatifs sure. But you can't dodge the fac…

They're not failed. The novel is about Nell, despite the title it's not really about the Primer, this is her story, and so we get relatively little insight into what happens to the other two recipients of the original Primer. Also, all three of the girls who receive the original Primer are interacting with humans via the Primer. Elizabeth is interacting with ractors assigned (expensively) to the work, potentially at…

I see your point. I should have been more clear too, I meant more like "failed to achieve the goals stated by its creators." I agree that none of them failed to achieve a significant impact in the lives of the girls, and I think this blind spot of the creators and success outside of it is a significant and interesting part of the story.

But still my overall point remains! If someone is going to make a primer based on the ideas of the diamond age, they should be the ones to start this conversation. They should have a more sophisticated view of this limitation than an internet commenter who last read the book years ago. Not doing that is its own kind of failure.

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