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Small business owners say they're pressured to hire off-duty cops for security

minnesotareformer.com

351–360 of 606 posts

Re: Small business owners say they're pressured to hire off-duty cops for security

#351

We have a bunch of off-duty police here in the southeast US that do traffic control for churches, HOAs, etc. Not the same as security, I guess, but tangentially related. I always wonder how this is legally allowed. The idea of using taxpayer vehicles, training, equipment, etc. to control traffic while also leveraging the power of the badge to hold authority seems legally questionable, but IANAL.

Those are likely reserve officers. Reserve officers are generally part time and are used for additional manpower for events or recurring security so that normal patrol officers aren't short staffed. Generally the private entity pays the city, which then pays the cop. In many states private entities can't stop/redirect the flow of traffic legally so they hire off duty cops to do so.

That's my point - seems like private police with both public authority and resources. These officers are directly benefiting churches, private neighborhoods, etc. by providing public services benefitting private institutions.

Seems sketchy to me.

Re: Small business owners say they're pressured to hire off-duty cops for security

#352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Supreme Court is responsible for a lot of this, it has institutionalized immunity for law enforcement and prosecution and unlimited corporate money in politics so that it would require overriding that lever of power which doesn’t seem likely since democrats just rolled over when the gop wouldn’t allow Obama to appoint a Supreme Court justice.

I'm not one to ever defend the institution of policing or the court system that feeds and protects it, but cops do not have general immunity. They have qualified immunity from civil cases in some places. The primary friction from prosecuting police for criminal behavior has been and will continue to be DAs unwilling to prosecute (for various reasons, some reasonable, and some nefarious).

Right, so they’ve culturally made it impossible for the government to go after them and legally impossible for citizens. Pretty sweet deal.

Re: Small business owners say they're pressured to hire off-duty cops for security

#353
post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Detectives, or tactical teams at the direction of detectives. Street cops are as bad as the parent describes in most areas.

And, for the record, this embodies what most people meant when they said, "Defund the police." Not, "Get rid of the institution of law enforcement." Instead, "Lower funding so that the remainder is forced to be put towards necessary tasks which the police are actually effective at," reducing their ability to engage in the kind of paid apathy or harassment the GGP describes, and freeing up funding for preventative soc…

You can't lower the funding.

1. They self-fund. All confiscated cash is for keeps. If they're not allowed to keep it by state law, they're welcome to call in feds who will do the bust and give them 80% as a finders fee. 2. They extort cities into not "defunding". They don't want it, and they play hardball.

> nd no one in their right mind, even on the ACAB side, wants police to go away entirely.

No one's ever accused me of being in my right mind, but I am asking quite seriously... what would happen if they did? I have reason to believe "not much, good or bad".

In the places where things are horrible, they'd remain horrible. When SF has no retail stores because they can't handle the shoplifting, that'd remain true. And in the suburbs where things are boring, things would stay boring. If your car is stolen, you'd still never get it back. If your bike was stolen, same. If your home was broken into, no one would be caught. And if you were murdered, your murder would go unsolved just like before.

And I don't know how anyone can not see that.

Re: Small business owners say they're pressured to hire off-duty cops for security

#354
post #49

> Santamaria was later required to come up with security plans outlining the number of officers needed per night. The officers insisted on getting paid cash, she said. She feared if she didn’t oblige, she’d lose her license. > Eventually, another officer helped schedule off-duty work: Derek Chauvin. He worked security at her club for 17 years. > ... > She sold the club in 2019. When Santamaria saw Chauvin pinning Geo…

One theory I read is that Floyd and Chauvin were part of the same counterfeiting ring operating out of that club, and Chauvin murdered Floyd in order to keep him quiet. (Recall that Floyd was originally arrested for suspected use of a counterfeit $20 bill.) I think maybe part of the idea was that nightclubs are interesting to counterfeiters because they deal with so much cash. (Racism still plays a big part in the Fl…

[flagged]

Re: Small business owners say they're pressured to hire off-duty cops for security

#355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s a good way to get your business license paperwork lost. Edit: not sure why the downvotes here. If you’re a small business owner you are trying to get through your day and your day gets a lot longer if you piss off casually corrupt city officials who can shut your business down by slow walking needed paperwork. This is a group that happily added 200% to your operating costs via ransoming your business license f…

I think that if what you were describing was true, a federal DOJ investigation would result in a lot of people spending time in federal prison, and your friend walking away with enough money that your friend can drone all he wants from a private beach in the Bahamas while you both sip mai tais. So yes, they can retaliate against your friend. And your friend can retaliate against them and the difference is that their…

Eh, it's easy to say that someone else should risk their business to do what's right, it's a lot harder to actually do that yourself.

Re: Small business owners say they're pressured to hire off-duty cops for security

#356
post #350

Friend of mine runs a drone photography business (think instagram people on vacation or house photography for real estate). The city requires he hire an off duty cop for $100/hr to “manage the set” and the minimum time per engagement for this rent-a-racketeer service is four hours. The shoots are usually about 30 minutes.

This ordinance sounds like it was created to discourage people from flying drones and photographing residents without their permission. If I had to guess, some hobbyists probably tried to claim what they were doing was business-related. So, the city decided to set a high bar.

Hobbyist flying is not covered under these rules. You can still fly non commercial under the applicable FAA rules as anywhere else. This is just a petty local shakedown. They could come and yell at you I guess but there're no laws that would back that yelling up. The only stick here is the business license.

Re: Small business owners say they're pressured to hire off-duty cops for security

#357

Already, police do this exact shakedown on cities. There are numerous incidents (anecdotal) of US police threatening city officials to reduce enforcement during election cycles, demanding increases in police force budget. Broadly, the US needs to eliminate corruption. There are many broken feedback loops right now from the grand (lobbying and campaign finance) to the minuscule (niche price fixing, bribery, police-ran…

>It's astonishing the degree to which the public tolerates such forms of ineptitude and subversion – it has a direct impact on everyone's bottom line.

The George Floyd protests were huge. I don't think it's a simple matter of the public being too complacent.

I'd say that insofar as the protests were unsuccessful, it's because their energy wasn't being directed strategically. There was so much discussion of "defunding the police" without anyone offering a clear, compelling alternative approach to public safety and deterring crime.

From a systems-level perspective, telling everyone that police officers are jerks seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy. Nice people place a high priority on being well-regarded by others; jerks enjoy opportunities to abuse their power. The "ACAB" slogan exacerbates the problem it describes.

One question I wonder about is whether jurisdictions where the chief of police is elected tend to function better than jurisdictions where they're appointed by the mayor. There are so many dimensions along which mayoral performance can be evaluated, and public safety is just one of those. By squeezing all the dimensions into a single vote, we're limiting the amount of signal that voters can send to their government.

I don't think policing inherently needs to be a malicious activity. My impression is that police quality is higher in Europe than the US for instance, and that police quality changes depending on which US municipality you look at. One wild idea I sometimes dream about: Imagine if each city had multiple competing police departments, and every cop wore the logo of the department they worked for prominently on their shoulder. Then for each local election, voters vote for one or more logos, and police work + funding gets distributed to the competing departments accordingly. Every time you call to report a crime, it gets assigned semi-randomly to one of the departments, and you're told which department got the assignment. Basically, make police brutality and police corruption into a customer satisfaction issue. The very best police chiefs could make millions of dollars starting police companies which effectively served and protected cities across America.

Yeah, I know HN dislikes capitalism. But it's interesting that policing as an industry has very little capitalist competition -- it's entirely organized by the government -- and yet no one seems satisfied with it. I'd argue capitalist competition can work great if companies are competing to succeed at the correct metric. Alleged failures of capitalism often strike me as failures of the competition metric rather than failures of capitalism per se.

Re: Small business owners say they're pressured to hire off-duty cops for security

#358
post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty eye opening to watch every bill pushed through in the name of firearm safety turning out to have massive exemptions for off duty and retired cops. They're such a powerful political force that it's outright expected they should have a disproportionate ability to deliver force even after they're retired .

My favorite part is that California has a roster of handguns approved for sale. The pretext for its existence is consumer safety (it is entirely separate from bans on stuff like assault weapons or large magazines), but the actual effect is that you have a very limited selection in stores, and most of the designs are very dated. But if you're a police officer? You get an exemption! Apparently, the state has no regard…

What does buying a gun have to do with safety?

Re: Small business owners say they're pressured to hire off-duty cops for security

#359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want to shoot other humans. I've been in a situation where I nearly needed to, and I'll never fail to be equipped to do so. I had to shoot a cat about a year ago, and I'm still a bit fucked up about it. A human would be so much worse, and that's not something I want to experience.

The idea of shooting an innocent cat, even when needed to end its misery, is far more disturbing to many/most vs say shooting a hamas terrorist.

I have no guilt, because it needed to be done. It's just emotionally traumatic. With a human, it's far more hurtful to the soul; no matter how much they needed shooting, they are fundamentally the same as you.

Re: Small business owners say they're pressured to hire off-duty cops for security

#360
post #323

Already, police do this exact shakedown on cities. There are numerous incidents (anecdotal) of US police threatening city officials to reduce enforcement during election cycles, demanding increases in police force budget. Broadly, the US needs to eliminate corruption. There are many broken feedback loops right now from the grand (lobbying and campaign finance) to the minuscule (niche price fixing, bribery, police-ran…

The SF Police Department bombed the mayor's house in 1975: "In early August 1975, the SFPD went on strike over a pay dispute, violating a California law prohibiting police from striking. The city quickly obtained a court order declaring the strike illegal and enjoining the SFPD back to work. The court messenger delivering the order was met with violence and the SFPD continued to strike... The ACLU obtained a court or…

See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrolmen%27s_Benevolent_Assoc...

> The Patrolmen's Benevolent Association Riot, also known as the City Hall Riot, was a rally organized and sponsored by the Patrolmen's Benevolent Association of the City of New York (PBA) held on September 16, 1992, to protest mayor David Dinkins' proposal to create a civilian agency to investigate police misconduct. Approximately 4,000 NYPD officers took part in a protest that included blocking traffic on the Brooklyn Bridge and jumping over police barricades in an attempt to rush City Hall. Rioters were observed to be openly drinking, damaging cars, and physically attacking journalists from the New York Times on the scene. Rioters also chanted racial epithets towards the African-American Mayor Dinkins. The nearly 300 uniformed on-duty officers did little to control the riot.

Inflamed in part by Rudy Guliani.

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