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Using different flours for sourdough fosters different bacteria–and flavors

phys.org

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Re: Using different flours for sourdough fosters different bacteria–and flavors

#21
post #7

Neither this study nor the previous one from the same authors seems to look at the water. I would have thought the hardness of the water also influences what grows in the starter. Especially with white flour, which has few minerals.

I'd never thought about the water.. my wife started making sourdough bread a year ago, and now she's making them all the time.. extremely tasty. Her starter always seems to grow to nearly triple size. She uses mostly rye for that, I think, but she varies stuff. The water around here has basically zero hardness. There's never any need to remove calcium from anything, ever. Never seen any calcium deposits, unlike when I lived in Italy.

Re: Using different flours for sourdough fosters different bacteria–and flavors

#22
post #7

Neither this study nor the previous one from the same authors seems to look at the water. I would have thought the hardness of the water also influences what grows in the starter. Especially with white flour, which has few minerals.

Have you done any experiments on this? Using hard water vs demineralised? I have no idea if this is a thing that's spoken about in the Sourdough baking world.

I find that my sourdough starter’s smell is noticeably more yogurty (lactic acid) and less tangy (acetic) when I add a tiny amount of food grade calcium to the water. There’s a similar effect on the final bread as well, but there are other factors (eg fermentation time/temperature) that probably have a bigger effect on the final loaf.

I believe the calcium feeds the lactic acid producing bacteria, favoring their growth.

Re: Using different flours for sourdough fosters different bacteria–and flavors

#25

>"For example, the bacterial community in amaranth sourdough produces an aroma that smells almost exactly like ham," I've made a sourdough starter last summer that smelled EXACTLY like pear. It led to discover that there's all these sorts of Esthers that are named after their smell. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethyl_decadienoate My chemistry and biology is highschool level, and sourdough baking (+ kombucha brewin…

Exactly that smell is the smell of high-end motorcycle engine oil. Motul 300V smells amazing. “Double ester” is one of the selling points.

Re: Using different flours for sourdough fosters different bacteria–and flavors

#26
post #17

As a celiac i am not surprised ;)

Celiac of like 25 years here. I started making gluten free sourdoughs a couple months ago. I base my technique on the bakerita.com recipe, but now use all sorts of flours. It is amazing

I'd love to get your bread recipe! I tried my first GF sourdough recently (from a very basic 4-ingredient recipe), and it was... not fantastic. Didn't rise much at all, even after giving it a lot of time to do so.

Planning to try King Arthur's recipe next...

Re: Using different flours for sourdough fosters different bacteria–and flavors

#27

A great read about the importance of flour: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/04/13/baking-bread-i...

Another good read/listen is this gastropod episode (https://gastropod.com/secrets-of-sourdough/) which features cool projects like a global sourdough sequencing project (http://robdunnlab.com/projects/sourdough/), a sourdough library (https://www.puratos.com/campaigns/the-lab---18th-of-october), and it's caretaker (https://www.instagram.com/sourdough_librarian/)/

They did an experiment with bakers from around the world making starters with the same flour, bringing them together and looking at what was in them. From the transcript:

DUNN: When we looked at the bakers’ hands, their skin bacteria on their hands was about half sourdough bacteria. And so they, like, have sourdough paws.

DUNN: We’ve looked at zillions of hands. We’ve never seen anything like this. And so the first result is that the bakers themselves have changed in response to their occupation.

TWILLEY: Normal hands like mine and Cynthia’s and Rob’s—they are something like 2 to 4 percent Lactobacillus.

DUNN: On the hands of the bakers, it is like it’s the star of the show. It’s wild. I mean, if it’s right, you should be able to put flour and water on a baker’s hand and it should start to ferment immediately and become acidic.

GRABER: Working with sourdough has entirely changed the microbial environment on the bakers’ skin. They’ve been colonized by their pets! Rob wonders if the bakers spend so much time with their hands in acidic dough that the sourdough Lactobacillus microbes end up with a competitive advantage over normal skin microbes.

Re: Using different flours for sourdough fosters different bacteria–and flavors

#28

If you live in Georgia, Bread Beckers is an excellent source of different grains and instruction. Most of her classes/workshops are free on YouTube as well. Changing our diet with good grains has really helped overcome some chronic health conditions.

What do you mean with good grains?

Organic or bulk/modern farmed, having a variety like white, red, soft, hard wheat varieties, kamut, oats, rye, different types of rice, beans, etc. For us grinding them directly then baking so that they have not been bleached and had nutrients added back (basically for shelf life). The "bread becker thing", without getting into religion, boils down to a philosophy that commercial flour (without even thinking about adding additional gluten) has many micro nutrients removed during the process of stabilizing for shelf life that it loses a significant portion of its nutritional value. By storing whole grains (shelf stable) and grinding it right before cooking/preparation preserves the most nutrients possible. They have hard to find (in the US) mixers, grain grinders, etc. Most regions in Georgia will have a co-op that will take monthly orders and bring them back from Woodstock so that you don't have to drive there. We live about 2 hours away and found out about it through friends and our local farmers market. They have a full kitchen there where they do cooking demonstrations and record for youtube.

Re: Using different flours for sourdough fosters different bacteria–and flavors

#29
post #23

Someone once told me that bread making is like managing a bacteria zoo. You use sugar and flour to feed them and use salt to control their growth.

Well.. common style bread making uses yeast, and no bacteria are involved, for the most part. And yeast also likes sugar and flour. The salt doesn't make any difference at all in my experience, as far as growth is concerned, it's purely to get the exact right taste you want. To actually impact growth I believe it would make the bread too salty to eat.

Sourdough bread making is different in that you're feeding a kind of symbiotic relationship of lactic acid bacteria and natural (non-industrial yeast), and you try to get the balance of your sourdough starter right (too much bacteria - it gets sour. You don't actually want sourdough bread to be sour, except for maybe a slight hint of it. Too little - you don't get a nice bread). And there's also a risk that other unwanted bacteria start growing and destroys the taste you're looking for. So yes, for sourdough you'll have to take care of your sourdough starter. It's not that it's terribly tricky. And you can e.g. flatten it and dry it completely and keep it that way, and re-start it later. Nice if you're flying to elsewhere, for example (something I did). But even here I don't know anyone who adds salt to the starter, you add salt when you make bread, and that's purely for taste (in my household salt was forgotten several times.. everything works out exactly the same, you don't notice until you try tasting the bread..!)

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