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Lab leak fight casts chill over virology research

nytimes.com

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Re: Lab leak fight casts chill over virology research

#101

Post by somewhereoutth »

toomim wrote: post #33
somewhereoutth wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except of course that isn't what happened. All evidence points to zoonotic spillover, aggravated by our encroachment on previously undisturbed natural areas and global warming. Sadly, it was both political useful ('the Chinese did it!'), and ideologically useful ('a few faulty humans did this, like in the movies'), to blame the lab in Wuhan. By doing so, we can absolve ourselves of blame, and of need to take action -…

It's not absolving anyone from blame. The lab leak theory blames all parties-- it points out that the US NIH funded the research being done in Wuhan, which is public record. That's leaving aside the specious claim that there's no evidence of lab leak. The evidence of first outbreaks being near the lab are evidence of it being a lab leak, just as the first outbreaks going through a wet market are evidence of natural e…

It's absolving 'us' of blame - meaning our activities in causing the spillover event in the first place, and our failure to contain the outbreak - or even make it real for many in our population.

Much easier to identify a few bad actors (which can then be 'punished' so this 'never happens again') instead of the crapness of people in general (which crapness ensures that this will happen again, with bodybags and lockdowns, and probably quite soon)

Re: Lab leak fight casts chill over virology research

#102

Post by molticrystal »

When we can do this work in a satellite with robots, and ensure that in case of launch failure or de-orbitting the samples are incinerated, then we can discuss doing this research. Otherwise we are just playing with fire and doing our best to ensure somebody doesn't bring something smoldering to the outside.

Re: Lab leak fight casts chill over virology research

#103

Post by somewhereoutth »

oldpersonintx wrote: post #21
somewhereoutth wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except of course that isn't what happened. All evidence points to zoonotic spillover, aggravated by our encroachment on previously undisturbed natural areas and global warming. Sadly, it was both political useful ('the Chinese did it!'), and ideologically useful ('a few faulty humans did this, like in the movies'), to blame the lab in Wuhan. By doing so, we can absolve ourselves of blame, and of need to take action -…

> All evidence points to zoonotic spillover, aggravated by our encroachment on previously undisturbed natural areas and global warming. what evidence? in any case, thats fancy language for: "Donald Trump was a proponent of the lab leak hypothesis so we had to come up with an alternate theory lest we appear to be in agreement with Donald Trump...so we've decided that it was people eating Pangolin Soup"

Nobody who has any sense is even remotely interested in agreeing or disagreeing with Trump - he could not be part of any meaningful debate, anymore than a 5 year old, we are just disappointed he became POTUS.

Re: Lab leak fight casts chill over virology research

#104

Post by somenameforme »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #50
chrisco255 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The purpose of a vaccine is to inoculate against a disease. The vaccine failed miserably at that. If the disease were actually deadly enough, more people would have chanced an experimental mRNA injection into their bloodstream vs taking the disease on via natural immunity. You didn't have to propagandize and gaslight people to take the smallpox vaccine: it was self evident how deadly the disease was. And yet, the wor…

> purpose of a vaccine is to inoculate against a disease. The vaccine failed miserably at that. Inoculation means to prevent disease. The mRNA vaccines were extraordinary at preventing Covid, the disease. Sterilisation is a nice to have, but far from mandatory--modern polio vaccines aren't sterilising. > didn't have to propagandize and gaslight people to take the smallpox vaccine: it was self evident how deadly the d…

"> A meaningful fraction of Americans, Brits and Canadians are generally against inoculation [1]."

He said was. The disease was deadly, now it's threat to you is extremely low. If you weren't aware, we stopped vaccinating for small pox in 1972, as soon as it was no longer a threat in the United States. It would not be globally eradicated until 1979.

And I think that's largely the problem many people have. Forcing vaccinations for diseases that pose little risk is illogical. In looking up information on this topic I somehow stumbled onto this [1] page. For instance now the seasonal flu vaccine is required for immigrants, and even in some schools!?

The flu poses an extremely negligible risk to both of these groups. It's hard not to see the motivation behind this as being simply directing ever more $$$ to big-pharma interests, which the people making these rules are often directly invested in. It doesn't feel like rational public health guidance, and that destroys trust.

[1] - https://www.cdc.gov/immigrantrefugeehealth/laws-regs/vaccina...

Re: Lab leak fight casts chill over virology research

#105

Post by burnished »

TheBlight wrote: post #90
burnished wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it lacks motive. Further 'they did it to us' was pretty clearly sparked by fear. And it has been years; if some one did it deliberately then they failed to capitalize on it.

Who is "they"? Lots of people made lots of money from covid 19. There were also significant political ramifications.

Still no motive for a deliberate action. I'm having a hard time believing that releasing COVID-19 was a competing plan for accomplishing anyones goals.

Re: Lab leak fight casts chill over virology research

#106

Post by TheBlight »

burnished wrote: post #105
TheBlight wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who is "they"? Lots of people made lots of money from covid 19. There were also significant political ramifications.

Still no motive for a deliberate action. I'm having a hard time believing that releasing COVID-19 was a competing plan for accomplishing anyones goals.

Trillions of dollars is a significant motive.

Re: Lab leak fight casts chill over virology research

#107

Post by sterlind »

Another lesson we should learn from the pandemic, aside from the risks of GoF research, is that searching for novel viruses in animals can be extremely dangerous.

WIV collected samples from bat populations to find novel coronaviruses. Processing those samples was not done in a BSL-4 facility, but instead in BSL-2 labs. Some of those samples, like RaTG13, were as close as 96% similar to SARS-CoV-2. Even if COVID didn't require GoF research to spill over into humans, and was a purely natural spillover, actively collecting novel viruses and processing them in a low-BSL lab is a recipe for disaster.

BSL-4 is reserved for pathogens known to be dangerous to humans. This policy effectively translates to treating novel viruses as safe until proven otherwise, which is reckless.

Re: Lab leak fight casts chill over virology research

#108

Post by oldpersonintx »

burnished wrote: post #77
TheBlight wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's curious to me that deliberate act is the one option no one seems interested in entertaining as a possibility.

Because it lacks motive. Further 'they did it to us' was pretty clearly sparked by fear. And it has been years; if some one did it deliberately then they failed to capitalize on it.

[flagged]

Re: Lab leak fight casts chill over virology research

#109

Post by chaostheory »

sterlind wrote: post #99
shadowgovt wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, that sort of GOF research is at the top of the list of GOF utility. Because animal virii making the jump to humans is the risk factor the international epidemiology community tries to protect against, for the very reasons you've highlighted: the harm when it occurs and the frequency with which it occurs (rare, but often enough to create a once-a-century firestorm, at least). Spanish Flu was likely an a…

Do you actually need GoF research to prevent animal spillovers? Did GoF research help us develop the COVID vaccines? Or does GoF research mostly demonstrate the risks of spillover? Because I think we're now well aware of the risks, and ought to avoid poking the bear any further.

Humans would need less animal contact. To end this, you’d have to end the animal agriculture industry.

I am not a vegan.

Re: Lab leak fight casts chill over virology research

#110

Post by somenameforme »

fzeroracer wrote: post #72
kylebenzle wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, I did a double take in your second paragraph thinking I was reading a comment I had left earlier, lol. But right on, I feel exactly the same. I do plant transformation and we call these experiments, mRNA "transient-expression" assays, as in, transiently transgenic. It was so weird from my perspective that we were going to start using the common lab technique to test genes on people. The only two facts I needed w…

You realize early on into the pandemic our hospital systems were struggling with the amount of patients that had to come in and see urgent care, right? As in, other people with more treatable conditions were dying because hospitals were filled up and there were no staff or beds available. Like this is just an objective fact. COVID now is far more mild because of vaccination and how the virus has evolved (Omnicron bei…

Vaccines have no effect on whether a virus mutates to become milder or more virulent. Effective vaccines, which prevent spread, can eliminate a disease, but clearly the COVID vaccines failed on that front. So for instance the Spanish Flu was an unimaginably brutal disease that primarily killed people in the 20-40 year old range! [1] Just terrifying stuff. But it never disappeared. It's still with us today as a variant of the common seasonal flu. The next time you've a winter fever and some congestion, you might well have the Spanish Flu, or what it's become at least.

And obviously there were no vaccines for the Spanish Flu.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_flu#Patterns_of_fatali...

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