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Leaked Microsoft pay guidelines – salary, hiring bonus, stock awards by level

businessinsider.com

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Re: Leaked Microsoft pay guidelines – salary, hiring bonus, stock awards by level

#151

Post by guappa »

bergkvist wrote: post #121
occz wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taxable income is public information in Sweden, and you can basically buy a catalog containing the previous years income for everyone in a given area if you'd like. Stuff like addresses and so on is also public information in Sweden, for what it's worth. This always makes me feel a bit strange when hearing people considering releasing someone's address to be doxxing and something horrible - like you can just look up…

Actually addresses being public are causing issues. Sweden has a lot of problems with gang violence, and gang members often register their public addresses to other peoples addresses, causing innocent people to be killed. The address you enter is in no way being verified beyond it needing to be a valid address.

Do you have a link where it happened once?

Re: Leaked Microsoft pay guidelines – salary, hiring bonus, stock awards by level

#152

Post by guappa »

dfxm12 wrote: post #146
figmert wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why shouldn't Dave and Cathy know what Bob is earning? They're the same level, they should earn the same.

It's a matter of perspective. From a worker point of view, being open about what we're earning will help bring to light if we're being exploited. From a business owner point of view, employees having this knowledge disturbs the power imbalance employers enjoy when it comes to compensation negotiations. I think more people than you'd expect in HN are in the latter camp. This site was launched as Startup News, after al…

Most users are workers who haven't figured out they aren't capitalists yet.

Re: Leaked Microsoft pay guidelines – salary, hiring bonus, stock awards by level

#153

Post by cma »

sokoloff wrote: post #29
dom96 wrote: post #6

At this point is there any disadvantage to legislating that all companies should share a transparency report where they list their levels + avg, min, max, median salaries for each level?

I’m opposed to disclosure laws that would be prone to expose the income of individual people. If Alice is the only SWEPR5 at a company, that proposal publishes her salary. If Bob is clearly the best SWEPR4, Cathy the middle, and Dave just barely got promoted to that level, their salaries are also individually published. I don’t object to good faith ranges being required in job listings, but I oppose anything that wou…

It's already the case for H1Bs.

Re: Leaked Microsoft pay guidelines – salary, hiring bonus, stock awards by level

#154

Post by nine_k »

bitshiftfaced wrote: post #149
solardev wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Smaller companies can just report whatever they're paying each employee that year, then?

Grandparent poster asked what the disadvantages were. Some employees might not want their personal salary information revealed.

I think the legal requirements is declaring pay ranges for which the companies agree to hire (IDK if they must reveal current actual pay). A range can conceal enough for a particular employee not to feel exposed.

Re: Leaked Microsoft pay guidelines – salary, hiring bonus, stock awards by level

#155

Post by BrkAway21 »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #88
figmert wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why shouldn't Dave and Cathy know what Bob is earning? They're the same level, they should earn the same.

While I support all efforts at increasing information transparency, I disagree that prices need to be the same. It is possible that humans are sufficiently different in the quality of the labor they are selling that a buyer might price them differently. For example, I am willing to pay a higher price for someone has 10 years of experience and is less likely to make mistakes or other desirable qualifies more than some…

The problem with your example is that you are making the assumption that someone with 10 years of experience is less likely to make mistakes in practice than the person with 0 years of experience. I've seen several examples over my career where the technically "more experienced" individual is not truly the better suited for the job. You won't know that until you hire them and, in my opinion, is a good reason for why you should pay someone based on the job (so long as they qualify for it). It doesn't mean that everyone needs to make exactly the same amount, because I think there is an argument to be made for someone who has more tenure at a company to retain them and for their role-specific experience. But that shouldn't be a >5% difference.

Also, I don't see how people can't see that this is precisely the logic that contributes to women generally getting paid less for doing the same job. Anecdotally, I joined a company and had about 7 years of experience. My "peers" in performing exactly the same duties as me had probably about 25 years of experience. I was responsible for the 2nd largest revenue generating P&L that generated the highest profit margin (which I actually turned around from losing money in 6 months). I found out I was getting paid $70k less than "my peers." Are you going to tell me that despite performing the exact same job and actually performing it objectively "better" that I should have made less money? This is the kind of stuff that routinely happens to women.

Re: Leaked Microsoft pay guidelines – salary, hiring bonus, stock awards by level

#156

Post by paulcole »

wdb wrote: post #140
paulcole wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should they earn the same? They’re not the same person.

Why have levels then?

Generally as a business scales it makes sense to add processes and standardization. But levels do not have to dictate equal salary. People are different, with different motivations, assets, and leverage.

Personally, throughout my career I've actively tried to earn less than coworkers. It gives me more wiggle room to goof off, makes my similar accomplishments look/feel a bit more impressive, and helps keep me off the chopping block at layoff time. I actively don't want to be paid the same as somebody with the same job title/level as me.

And I can understand why someone who adds more in terms of output and contribution would want to earn more than someone else who adds less.

Of course, there's (what I see as) good pay inequality and bad pay inequality (that which is driven by systemic injustice, discrimination, etc.). If a company thinks standardized salaries are the best way to fight that, that's a choice they're welcome to make.

Re: Leaked Microsoft pay guidelines – salary, hiring bonus, stock awards by level

#158

Post by lotsofpulp »

colmmacc wrote: post #102
occz wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taxable income is public information in Sweden, and you can basically buy a catalog containing the previous years income for everyone in a given area if you'd like. Stuff like addresses and so on is also public information in Sweden, for what it's worth. This always makes me feel a bit strange when hearing people considering releasing someone's address to be doxxing and something horrible - like you can just look up…

I have a very hard time believing that sales-people and trades-people don't take it into considering when negotiating or quoting a price. One of the reasons a car sales person wants to "check your credit" early in the process is to get your credit rating and address - which helps them guess your price sensitivity - and many home services certainly take into account the area you live in even when it is irrelevant.

> many home services certainly take into account the area you live in even when it is irrelevant.

When negotiating a price, how much a buyer is able and willing to pay is always relevant for a seller. (And vice versa for a buyer).

Re: Leaked Microsoft pay guidelines – salary, hiring bonus, stock awards by level

#159

Post by dagw »

bergkvist wrote: post #127
hasperdi wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Norway is one

But you can't look it up anonymously. You have to authenticate with your national ID number, and the person will be notified about who looked up their income.

The way they get around this in Sweden at least is that you pay a company to do the look up for you and then no one knows who looked up what or why.

Re: Leaked Microsoft pay guidelines – salary, hiring bonus, stock awards by level

#160

Post by lotsofpulp »

sofixa wrote: post #118
colmmacc wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a very hard time believing that sales-people and trades-people don't take it into considering when negotiating or quoting a price. One of the reasons a car sales person wants to "check your credit" early in the process is to get your credit rating and address - which helps them guess your price sensitivity - and many home services certainly take into account the area you live in even when it is irrelevant.

Yeah, "checking your credit" doesn't exist, really, outside of the US. When making loan decisions, your income and loan totals/history are the main things considered, not an arbitrary score by private third parties that couldn't keep the data safe if their lives depended on it.

A lender or seller does not have to use any specific credit score. Many businesses calculate their own credit score based on borrowing/repayment history, and some do not calculate a score at all.
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