Unfounded concerns about photovoltaic toxicity and waste slowing decarbonization • Hacker News Board

Re: Unfounded concerns about photovoltaic toxicity and waste slowing decarbonization

#41

Post by kjksf » Tue, Oct 17, 2023, 9:49 AM UTC

throwaway60742 wrote: post #18

hannob wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is certainly true, but it's not a full explanation. I recently was at an information event from our local electricity provider about wind energy projects. And there are those people... There was a conversation going on like: "The people I talked to don't want these things." Event moderator: "What are the reasons?" Guy: "They simply don't want them." And I am pretty sure that was no fossil fuel lobbyist. It was j…

People don't want to pay for it. The cost of the wind/solar project itself is not the full story - you also need energy storage, and that's very expensive. You also need to rebuild the electrical grid to handle the peak power output to be able to store it. In EU countries, at least part of these very significant costs are paid for by everyone - not just the company operating the wind/solar projects who profit from it…

If that's the reason then those people are misinformed.

Coal and gas plants are closing because they cannot compete on price with solar/wind + battery storage.

The cost advantage is not true everywhere but the future is clear. Coal and gas will not become cheaper. Solar and wind is most expensive today it'll ever be.

Storage in particular is so early in the cycle that we can expect the cost will drop at least in half. We've barely started making battery storage, the industry has 100x growth ahead.

And this is without pricing the real costs of using oil & coal & gas like all those people who have asthma (or worse) because they inhale the fumes.

Even living in a city (cars) has clear statistical link to increased asthma and other respiratory diseases compared to places with less cars.

Re: Unfounded concerns about photovoltaic toxicity and waste slowing decarbonization

#42

Post by throwaway60742 » Tue, Oct 17, 2023, 9:50 AM UTC

kjksf wrote: post #41

throwaway60742 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People don't want to pay for it. The cost of the wind/solar project itself is not the full story - you also need energy storage, and that's very expensive. You also need to rebuild the electrical grid to handle the peak power output to be able to store it. In EU countries, at least part of these very significant costs are paid for by everyone - not just the company operating the wind/solar projects who profit from it…

If that's the reason then those people are misinformed. Coal and gas plants are closing because they cannot compete on price with solar/wind + battery storage. The cost advantage is not true everywhere but the future is clear. Coal and gas will not become cheaper. Solar and wind is most expensive today it'll ever be. Storage in particular is so early in the cycle that we can expect the cost will drop at least in half…

No way they are misinformed, look at German power mix. Germany - the most vocal proponents of wind/solar - is the most polluting country in the whole EU.

> Coal and gas plants are closing because they cannot compete on price with solar/wind + battery storage.

That did not happen anywhere in Europe. New gas plants are being constructed right now, and coal powerplants had to be restarted when Germans dropped nuclear.

> Storage in particular is so early in the cycle that we can expect the cost will drop at least in half. We've barely started making battery storage, the industry has 100x growth ahead.

We need to decarbonize today though. People don't want to pay the high prices, so how does the drop happen?

> And this is without pricing the real costs of using oil & coal & gas like all those people who have asthma (or worse) because they inhale the fumes.

Again, ask Germans about that. Their universal healthcare is going to get expensive soon if they continue on their "green" path.

> Even living in a city (cars) has clear statistical link to increased asthma and other respiratory diseases compared to places with less cars.

Completely orthogonal, people mostly agree on that, but they (where I live) want to charge the electric cars from nuclear energy.

Re: Unfounded concerns about photovoltaic toxicity and waste slowing decarbonization

#43

Post by svnt » Tue, Oct 17, 2023, 9:51 AM UTC

orwell_bruh wrote: post #35

weevil wrote: post #3

I'm honestly at a loss as to why some people (and organizations) are hell-bent on hampering attempts to decarbonize, and amplifying whatever tiny negatives they can whether they're real or not, as though nothing less than 100% perfect is worth replacing the awful status quo.

If I did see CO2 as a problem I'd still be against wind and solar and all the other harebrained schemes that are mathematically proven to be unable to even make a dent in climate change. However, they are guranteed to lower our standard of living substantially. And a prediction that you'll be able to observe in the coming decades: a lot of those "minor" and "invented" concerns will be front and center once we all hav…

Let it out. Let the last pieces of your clinging to an identity in crude oil products fall away.

Gaia still loves you. Hydrocarbon technology never cared in the first place. No one blames you for being deceived.

Re: Unfounded concerns about photovoltaic toxicity and waste slowing decarbonization

#44

Post by hef19898 » Tue, Oct 17, 2023, 9:53 AM UTC

lbriner wrote: post #28

hkwerf wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding people, I'd guess that this is mostly caused by cognitive dissonance between the size of the own carbon footprint and the need to decarbonize. Resolving that dissonance would require either to accept that decarbonization is necessary and therefore a lifestyle change or that decarbonization is not necessary and therefore the current lifestyle is okay. Regarding organizations: They're probably either driven b…

The problem that Western governments have is that everyone in the country has a vote and people don't like inconvenience. If you want to "do the right thing" and e.g. ban ICE vehicles, you get a massive backlash, so instead you water it down, kick the can down the road, pretend other less contraversial measures are just as effective or (in the case of the UK), "we are already ahead of other countries so we don't need…

That everybody has a vote is actually a strength, and not a weakness.

And banning ICE vehicles is not up for discussion anymore, is it? Legislature or not, no company will be able to sell you a new one come 2035 anyway.

A more general thought so, one that troubles me, is that both "sides" of the public opinion cobflicts we see in the west today seem to be totally fine with using authoritarian measures for the greater good, some more than others and the far right actively advocating for it. It will be liberals that loose with that approach, as the goals of the political liberals can easily be framed as "they want to take away things", hence the far right gets a huge opening.

Re: Unfounded concerns about photovoltaic toxicity and waste slowing decarbonization

#45

Post by froh » Tue, Oct 17, 2023, 9:53 AM UTC

oh is this the "infrasound problem" of photovoltaics? (where Bavaria effectively banned wind turbines because of "infrasound emissions" and the paper was later retracted for an off-by-1000 error)

Re: Unfounded concerns about photovoltaic toxicity and waste slowing decarbonization

#46

Post by svnt » Tue, Oct 17, 2023, 9:54 AM UTC

littlestymaar wrote: post #7

weevil wrote: post #3

I'm honestly at a loss as to why some people (and organizations) are hell-bent on hampering attempts to decarbonize, and amplifying whatever tiny negatives they can whether they're real or not, as though nothing less than 100% perfect is worth replacing the awful status quo.

I'll bite: the problem is that renewable in itself doesn't mean decarbonation: if you're importing solar panels built with Chinese coal and deploy them in Europe / Northern US, you're not actually decarboning anything, and instead you're increasing the carbon footprint but move it abroad. So there are things that are not just “not perfect” but actually harmful, and you can't just blindly deploy “not perfect” things.…

Where do you get this information? I’m genuinely curious.

Re: Unfounded concerns about photovoltaic toxicity and waste slowing decarbonization

#47

Post by 0xDEF » Tue, Oct 17, 2023, 9:57 AM UTC

Gasp0de wrote: post #5

weevil wrote: post #3

I'm honestly at a loss as to why some people (and organizations) are hell-bent on hampering attempts to decarbonize, and amplifying whatever tiny negatives they can whether they're real or not, as though nothing less than 100% perfect is worth replacing the awful status quo.

Because some people make billions by utilizing or selling "free" energy from fossil fuels? Companies extract these, they often don't pay for the energy (just the cost of extraction) and can sell them at huge profits. The cost of pollution is then also not paid by them.

On social media it's the conspiracy theorists and "compulsive contrarians" who oppose photovoltaics and EVs. They might be the useful idiots of the oil/gas industry but their stupidity is organic.

Re: Unfounded concerns about photovoltaic toxicity and waste slowing decarbonization

#48

Post by Lanolderen » Tue, Oct 17, 2023, 9:58 AM UTC

weevil wrote: post #3

I'm honestly at a loss as to why some people (and organizations) are hell-bent on hampering attempts to decarbonize, and amplifying whatever tiny negatives they can whether they're real or not, as though nothing less than 100% perfect is worth replacing the awful status quo.

Corpos: Profits and desire for less regulation

People: Corpo greenwashing, energy source disagreements between nuclear, multiple inconsistent sources, "I don't wanna pay 2-3* more for green electricity while in some third world country not a single car has a cat and they burn tires for metal+heating while dumping acid in the nearby river from the outsourced chrome keychain factory"

Re: Unfounded concerns about photovoltaic toxicity and waste slowing decarbonization

#49

Post by kemotep » Tue, Oct 17, 2023, 9:59 AM UTC

throwaway60742 wrote: post #34

hannob wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if you're importing solar panels built with Chinese coal and deploy them in Europe / Northern US, you're not actually decarboning anything, and instead you're increasing the carbon footprint but move it abroad. That is an urban legend and not supported by any evidence. Full solar lifecycle emissions are around an order of magnitude lower than fossil fuels.

Does "full solar lifecycle emissions" include the gas and coal powerplant you use because you couldn't build energy storage and your electric grid can't handle the peak power? Does it include the reconstruction of the grid it necessitated?

Are you saying that if we don’t build solar panels, we won’t have to use electricity generated by gas and coal?

Re: Unfounded concerns about photovoltaic toxicity and waste slowing decarbonization

#50

Post by inglor_cz » Tue, Oct 17, 2023, 9:59 AM UTC

weevil wrote: post #3

I'm honestly at a loss as to why some people (and organizations) are hell-bent on hampering attempts to decarbonize, and amplifying whatever tiny negatives they can whether they're real or not, as though nothing less than 100% perfect is worth replacing the awful status quo.

The not-so-tiny negative that some professionals here in CZ mention is disreputable Chinese vendors.

"Oh yeah, we will give you 10 years warranty for your panels, buy! Cheap!"

Only the necessary seals are shoddy and the panel dies much sooner from water incursion. At which moment you find out that the producer has gone out of business, so no recourse.

This is not a fault of the technology per se, rather of humanity as usual, but I can see why several such incidents in your proximity will cause distrust.

The solution would be "buy from reputable vendors only", but IDK how many Chinese vendors are reputable and if they didn't decide to entshittify their products right now.