Live data from Hacker News

Detroit wants to be the first big American city to tax land value

economist.com

471–480 of 910 posts

Re: Detroit wants to be the first big American city to tax land value

#471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Texas is not Georgist. Property tax is assessed on the full market value of property, not on land. And Texas’s land speculation and sprawling, inefficient land use reflects this.

Agreed - its not pure Georgism. It is however the closest experiment to Georgism in the US as far as I can tell having looked at their tax revenue sources (mostly property taxes with some petroleum production tax and no income tax) and the fact that they will attempt to increase the property taxes to market value on an empty lot. For now at least... [1] https://www.dallasnews.com/news/watchdog/2022/04/20/property...…

I thought Philadelphia was closer to a LVT?

Re: Detroit wants to be the first big American city to tax land value

#472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

your first paragraph applies pretty much equally to taxing land+developments. Also, in the context of a city building to the maximum of the zoning is a good thing in nearly all instances because higher density means you need less land to provide shelter for the inhabitants and it's way, way easier to provide most services to higher density.

Property taxes that factor in existing improvements doesn't leave the owner as far behind chasing potential value that they are already being taxed for. When your tax burden is a factor of expected market value of the land plus permanent improvements they're taxing you on what you already have. When it's based on an expected optimal value of the lad they're taxing you on what *they* think your land *should* be worth…

> Higher density cities require more outside inputs brought in from outside the city.

Surely, it can't possibly be that simple. Sometimes that's true, sometimes it is not. If I want fiber to my house in the country I might be paying $30k to get that line all the way to my one house whether I want 100MB/sec or 10GB/sec. In the city it might be shared with hundreds and only need to run a few yards. Same for sewage. Same for police and fire.

Re: Detroit wants to be the first big American city to tax land value

#473
post #38
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if your neighborhood gets popular you get kicked out? Sounds like a healthy policy. Have you ever thought more than 2 minutes about it?

That is already how property tax works, except in California. I think most people agree that the California system is a disaster.

>> I think most people agree that the California system is a disaster.

And yet it is immensely popular. Why do you think that is?

I believe it's because rather than thinking home owners are evil rent seeking capitalists, most are hard working people who bought a house and think it's fair that the government not tax them out of it.

Re: Detroit wants to be the first big American city to tax land value

#474
post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A deferment isn't necessary. Banks are happy to do that kind of financial transformation for you via a reverse mortgage. (However, it might still be a vote winner. Voters aren't exactly the brightest.)

Reverse mortgages are generally only available in the US after you reach a certain age.

Interesting. Is that due to federal or state regulation? Or a choice by the banks?

Re: Detroit wants to be the first big American city to tax land value

#476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not the governments job to care about that.

It’s the governments job to do literally whatever the voters want it to do. Turns out the majority of voters are not all that interested in defending the piles of unproductive wealth.

Surprising since the lower wealth masses depend much more on unproductive wealth as their store of value (such as cash) vs the extremely wealthy that depend more on near monopoly of productive capital.

Maybe it's the minority who have tricked the majority to vote for their bidding.

Re: Detroit wants to be the first big American city to tax land value

#477

Pufff, Brazil does that since forever. By paying some tax over your land, basically your government is taking it from you every generation or two. Roughly, 2% each year and in 50 years and it's gone.

You are already paying taxes, Land Value Taxes just seek to be a more efficient (since they try to target rent seeking rather than profitable labor) and more just (since they target land that the owner didn't create) form of taxation. So arguing that it's effectively the government stealing your property is only a valid argument if you are arguing that all taxation is theft. If that's what you believe then that's fin…

>> Land Value Taxes just seek to be a more efficient (since they try to target rent seeking rather than profitable labor) and more just

So someone like Musk should pay basically no tax personally because he doesn't own any land?

I think the idea LVT comes from a period of time when land was a good proxy for wealth. These days, I think that's only true for the middle class, who gets crushed by LVT while the true wealthy laugh from their mansions on modest plots of land while spending their summers on billion dollar yachts.

Re: Detroit wants to be the first big American city to tax land value

#478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Human beings have to live somewhere and gathering them together in a small urban footprint is better for the climate, not worse.

How do those small urban footprints survive though? They bring in outside resources, external zing the impact elsewhere and adding in the cost of transporting goods into and waste out of the urban centers. There isn't a magic answer to it, but simply saying dense areas use less footprint for shelter ignores all the other necessities and conveniences consumed by the people living there.

5 single-family homes will consume the same amount of food and water as 5 units in a few duplexes or a five-over-one. The SFHs will consume more energy for heating and cooling (related to larger footprints) and use more resources to send power and water (larger distances to send power and water.) An SFH consumes more resources than a multifamily-housing unit holding the same number of people.

Re: Detroit wants to be the first big American city to tax land value

#480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

your first paragraph applies pretty much equally to taxing land+developments. Also, in the context of a city building to the maximum of the zoning is a good thing in nearly all instances because higher density means you need less land to provide shelter for the inhabitants and it's way, way easier to provide most services to higher density.

Property taxes that factor in existing improvements doesn't leave the owner as far behind chasing potential value that they are already being taxed for. When your tax burden is a factor of expected market value of the land plus permanent improvements they're taxing you on what you already have. When it's based on an expected optimal value of the lad they're taxing you on what *they* think your land *should* be worth…

Last two paragraphs first: You are making a logic error here. A human at a certain level of (whatever you want to call it, productivity, success, wealth, whatever) will want a certain lifestyle level and will use vastly more resources to achieve that lifestyle in a less dense city. You can see that comparing pretty much any set of cities in the world if you stratify by income and look at resource usage/co2 output/whatever. Environmental cost of importing resources is also pretty low as long as you have good transportation methods in use (i.e. shipping or train with trucks minimized). So, if you actually want minimize impact the correct thing to do is to expand and densify cities until the decrease in environmental damage per capita from increasing density equals the increase in environmental damage from importing resources. This means the best setup is a dense city with a decent resource feeder area around it, not a self sufficient area with a less dense/more suburban city.

Now for the first paragraph: This is kind of the point because maximizing use generally means more density, which means more opportunity to minimize use elsewhere. I did outline one situation that I thought was unfair and should be addressed, which is the situation where you buy land zoned one way with a much lower value only to have it zoned another way on you that makes it a lot more valuable. Other than that specific situation, I don't agree with you that your first paragraph is a problem, it's a positive feature.

Post reply on HN