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Detroit wants to be the first big American city to tax land value

economist.com

451–460 of 910 posts

Re: Detroit wants to be the first big American city to tax land value

#451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Land value taxes are generally set arbitrarily high. Localities are incentivized to set values as high as they can attempt to justify. They end up modeling what they think could be the most profitable or valuable development on the land then tax you as if that were already done. Eventually the land ends up in the hands of the few willing and able to abuse the land to that level, prioritizing profit above all else.

your first paragraph applies pretty much equally to taxing land+developments. Also, in the context of a city building to the maximum of the zoning is a good thing in nearly all instances because higher density means you need less land to provide shelter for the inhabitants and it's way, way easier to provide most services to higher density.

Property taxes that factor in existing improvements doesn't leave the owner as far behind chasing potential value that they are already being taxed for. When your tax burden is a factor of expected market value of the land plus permanent improvements they're taxing you on what you already have. When it's based on an expected optimal value of the lad they're taxing you on what *they* think your land *should* be worth if fully developed.

Assuming that higher density is always better ignores the externalities required to maintain such a system. Higher density cities require more outside inputs brought in from outside the city. Those inputs strip resources from other lands, require input to process the raw materials, and require fuel and vehicles to transport the goods into the city frequently. The city's waste must be transported and processed somewhere, again adding impacts to the environment even if those impacts aren't directly felt within city limits.

If the goal is to minimize impact, cities would only be as large and as dense as they can reasonably be self sufficient. That doesn't preclude trade between cities, states, and countries, but it does mean the city isn't entirely dependent on a constant churn of bringing in resources from elsewhere and shipping out waste.

Re: Detroit wants to be the first big American city to tax land value

#452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Strong Towns YouTube channel makes many similar points. Suburban construction in the US is terribly inefficient and wasteful in the long run by maximizing the convenience auto accessibility at the expense of everything else. If infrastructure had a technical debt equivalent, it would be suburban planning.

One thing I think Strong Towns would do better to emphasize is that their argument that suburbs are financially unsustainable applies more to those suburbs of struggling towns or small cities. I don't believe suburbs of large, economically healthy cities are running into unsustainable infrastructure costs nearly as much. They may run into funding difficulties if the suburb becomes an undesirable area, or if the pensi…

Exactly. ST seems to want to conflate areas that would probably be considered 'rural' with actual suburbs of large metro areas. Look at some of the towns mentioned in their 'suburbs bad' articles and you'll note they are usually quite far from a city, and usually that city is 2nd or 3rd tier (and likely facing its own financial issues.)

If anything, many of these rural/exurb communities are already at the minimum population needed to support the industries that must exist outside of dense/expensive cities. These aren't the overpriced McMansions full of entitled upper class folks, those tend to be located near the city, and are quite healthy financially due to outsized local tax revenues.

Re: Detroit wants to be the first big American city to tax land value

#453

France does this. End result is that french people go to great lengths to make their house look un-valuable. For example, they never paint anything and never do repairs. Some even have holes in the roof so they can claim buildings are worthless when in fact there is some 2nd roof underneath keeping the inside dry.

This is a land value tax, not a building value tax. So essentially the exact opposite of what you say. It would solve the french problem.

With an LVT they would be taxed identically regardless of if their building is in pristine shape or falling to shambles. Meaning there is now no longer any incentive to let the building rot.

Re: Detroit wants to be the first big American city to tax land value

#454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This argument has often confused me when so many people are concerned with global warming. Why should a city incentive land owners to develop and commoditize their land? If we want to reduce human impacts on the planet, why not incentive the opposite and incentive leaving the land natural? Land value taxes prioritize GDP and profit above all else. Isn't that how we got into this mess in the first place?

Human beings have to live somewhere and gathering them together in a small urban footprint is better for the climate, not worse.

How do those small urban footprints survive though? They bring in outside resources, external zing the impact elsewhere and adding in the cost of transporting goods into and waste out of the urban centers.

There isn't a magic answer to it, but simply saying dense areas use less footprint for shelter ignores all the other necessities and conveniences consumed by the people living there.

Re: Detroit wants to be the first big American city to tax land value

#455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are loading the tax burden on the land rather than on structures. So, you can build the Taj Mahal or leave the lot a burned out wreck-- either way you pay the same tax. Many comments on the thread overstate what this is. I happen to think it's interesting, but for reasons unrelated to the article-- it's kinda goofy for the state to tax personal property that happens to be fixed to a location, like a fireplace, s…

Detroit has blight. LVT addresses property speculators that buy land to sit on it for 10 years and do nothing with it. With LVT they have to either pay up, develop it, or sell it. All options good for the city.

> LVT addresses property speculators that buy land to sit on it for 10 years and do nothing with it.

Didn’t Detroit raze the lots in the first place, since they considered an empty lot to be better than one with a decaying house? I really doubt many of these lots will ever actually be developed to any reasonable extent, since they aren’t exactly in nice areas. And likewise I bet there won’t be many people dying to buy these lots either. My guess is the city will be taking ownership of a decent amount of land in the not-so-distant future.

Re: Detroit wants to be the first big American city to tax land value

#456
post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They should implement a blight tax or a vacant land tax instead. A land value tax is a much more elegant solution. For one, it doesn't introduce the problem of needing to define 'vacant land'. Is a parking lot vacant land? etc

I don't think tax law fears complexity. You make a table and there is an entry for "parcel of land with grass taller than 6 inches and containing one or more 1980s automobile with 3 or more tires" right alongside "parking lot" or "hospital".

Complexity introduces additional chances of creating loopholes and allowing people with enough resources to game the definitions to avoid the LVT. More basic implementations are also preferable because they're easier to administer, with your definition (or any that depends on the current year to year usage of the lot) you have to create a whole cadre of inspectors to check on the lots to ensure compliance and check people aren't just lying on their taxes.

Re: Detroit wants to be the first big American city to tax land value

#457
post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your weird scenario can happen with most other assessment scenarios either. If Warren Buffett wants to increase the value of my land, he can bid up all the surrounding plots, and make bids for my land. Any sane assessment method will see that the value of my land has increased, and will increase my property tax or LVT, and I'll have to pay or face the consequences. (In the self-assessment case, you can give people th…

I don't see that as a fair comparison. The number of people who are rich enough to buy a particular home for more than the hypothetical actual value is orders of magnitude greater than the number of people who can afford to buy up all the lots around a home at a premium and affect its property value. As a result, the perceived threat to the homeowner is substantially different. I also think you're ignoring the psycho…

If that kind of fear is a problem for people, it will just be reflected in lower market prices for land.

Someone who has more of a fear for can put up her self-declared land value. They'll pay a bit more in recurring tax, but would get a significant windfall, if their fear were to come to pass: Yes, there might be some psychological downsides to moving, but getting a extra few million dollars (or whatever) has psychological upsides, too.

Re: Detroit wants to be the first big American city to tax land value

#458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that's exactly the idea. We have a problem in the US where many metro areas do not have enough housing, in part because building big things is penalized by the tax code. By changing the tax code to not penalize construction, we hope to get more construction.

Detroit still has more houses than people wanting to live there.

How many of those houses are on the fringes, and how many are in the CBD? If there's a vacant plot next to the town hall then it doesn't really matter how many vacant houses are a 1-hour drive out, that town-hall adjacent plot is being wasted.

Re: Detroit wants to be the first big American city to tax land value

#459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This argument has often confused me when so many people are concerned with global warming. Why should a city incentive land owners to develop and commoditize their land? If we want to reduce human impacts on the planet, why not incentive the opposite and incentive leaving the land natural? Land value taxes prioritize GDP and profit above all else. Isn't that how we got into this mess in the first place?

From a climate perspective, cities should incentivize people to develop their land into dense/efficient usages because urban dwellers have the lowest per capita environmental impact. The alternative is suburban or rural dwelling which requires more resources and more duplication.

Duplication often leads to resilience in a system, and can lower the infrastructure required since the centralized resources aren't being shipped across the country.

Optimizing for profit in urban land use excludes the production of raw materials almost entirely. Meaning that raw materials have to be grown or raised elsewhere, transported into the city, and the waste has to be removed afterward.

Wouldn't it be more beneficial purely from an environmental angle to produce more food and resources in the urban areas to minimize external costs? And if so, wouldn't the current system disincentivize this in favor of higher profit per square foot businesses, regardless of the environmental impact?

Re: Detroit wants to be the first big American city to tax land value

#460
post #217

Oh man, I was hoping that this would be one of those things where they tax land to encourage new building, but it's just another city hurting for revenue looking to squeeze it's population a little more. Not that it won't spur development. It will. But not as much as anyone hopes. They have to eliminate taxes on all improvements to the land and tax the land itself only. Also remove code and zoning restrictions on it.…

Yep, if I own something I'd better own it. I shouldn't have to pay rent for owning land, or pay rent for owning a house. I'll just keep renting, I guess, since it makes no difference.

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