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Detroit wants to be the first big American city to tax land value

economist.com

301–310 of 910 posts

Re: Detroit wants to be the first big American city to tax land value

#301
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> difficulty in valuing the land. It's rather easy to value the land: Have the owner decide what it's worth, then they pay a tax as a percentage of that valuation. Now, obviously given that system everyone's going to value their land at $0. To adjust for that land owners must be obligated to sell their land to anyone willing to buy it at the declared valuation. Such a mechanism doesn't only keep the current owners ho…

This does not pass basic scrutiny unless the plan is to ruin average homeowners that valued their assets at fair market value. Essentially, you want to force asset owners to write an at-the-money call option against their assets, and then adding insult to injury by not paying them an offsetting risk premium. I don't know how any moral person could be a proponent of the kinds of abuse and profitable exploitation of av…

I'm not proposing anything novel, just describing the Harberger Tax (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harberger_Tax), or a variant thereof.

In particular the book by Glen Weyl mentioned in that article describes how it could work in more detail, and in a way that address the concerns you have.

A relevant except from that book (which I've got a Kindle copy of):

> For any tax rate below the turnover rate, the possessor will always set a price above the amount she is willing to accept[43]. When the tax rate is zero, the possessor is free to set any price she wishes at no cost and thus would set the monopoly price. When the tax rate equals the turnover rate, she has to reveal her true value. For intermediate tax rates, she will still be discouraged by the tax from setting a very high price, but she will not have a full incentive to report her exact value. Instead, she will set a price intermediate between her true value and the monopoly price that she expects a buyer to be willing to pay. As the tax rises from zero to the turnover rate, the price she quotes will gradually fall from the monopoly price to her true value.

That 43rd footnote in particular further addresses your exact concern (the mentioned "COST" stands for "common ownership self-assessed tax"):

> 43.: This fact helps allay two potential objections to a COST: that possessors may wish to “sabotage” the appeal of their goods to others to avoid their interest in taking the good, and that predatory outsiders may maliciously take goods just to harm a possessor. Notice that neither of these are possible if possessors always set prices above the minimum they would be willing to accept, because in this case the possessor is happy when her possessions are taken: she still profits, just not as much as if she set a monopoly price. Thus “predation” will be nearly as welcome as would be the “predation” of someone offering you out of the blue an extravagant sum for your home and you would never wish to sabotage your possessions as this would reduce the chance of such an exceptional opportunity. Only individuals who fraudulently report extremely low values and try to dramatically sabotage their goods would be open to predation, but so they should, and such individuals are likely to be caught by others before too much sabotage is possible.

Re: Detroit wants to be the first big American city to tax land value

#302
post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Property taxes and wealth taxes undermine property rights in ways that normal income taxes don’t. If I earn $100 and pay tax on it, whatever’s left over is mine forever, and I never have to pay tax on that income again. If I buy $100 worth of property, I have to pay tax on it again every year forever, which basically means I’m only buying the right to rent it from the government in perpetuity. Your use of the phrase…

> Property taxes and wealth taxes undermine property rights in ways that normal income taxes don’t. If I earn $100 and pay tax on it, whatever’s left over is mine forever, and I never have to pay tax on that income again. If I buy $100 worth of property, I have to pay tax on it again every year forever, which basically means I’m only buying the right to rent it from the government in perpetuity. No man is an island;…

>No man is an island; land should be seen as something rented from the people

right but if this is my only piece of land where I live on, I am "the people". I need to live somewhere, I have no choice. It's like asking a prisoner to pay weekly tax for the cell he lives on: He has no choice, he has to live in some cell. Instead tax it intelligently so that I'm exempt for my first and only house on a moderately sized piece of land.

Re: Detroit wants to be the first big American city to tax land value

#303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Bridges are even more financially burdensome. Recently, we replaced a culvert that was so small I could easily jump over it, and yet it set us back $700,000. Why? Why didn't you all agree to go down to Home Depot and load up on one big short metal pipe and some cement if that's the case? How was 700K spent?

State-mandated design and build engineering requirements

Not having the bridge blow over or vibrate apart.

Re: Detroit wants to be the first big American city to tax land value

#304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe property tax should be inversely related to improvements, considering that improved land generates tax revenue in other ways, e.g. wage tax, sales tax, etc.

A lot of property taxes go to funding schools, so...more housing = more kids = more money need to educate them. It is nice that they use property taxes from businesses as well, but to completely detach the education need formulas from tax formulas sounds really dangerous.

Surely more housing also means more working adults and more taxable income, so this could be handled with a local income tax.

Re: Detroit wants to be the first big American city to tax land value

#305
post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That land is provided ongoing services, security, and utilities which cost money each year to maintain Yeah, and I already pay PG&E, Comcrap, and whoever else is maintaining those services, I don't need to pay it again to the IRS. The IRS wouldn't do jack shit on land I own.

The IRS has nothing to do with property taxes. Property taxes mainly go to your town and some to your state. They mainly fund your local schools, streets, parks, maintenance, etc. Do you think all these things just magically exist?

Same thing, it's a bunch of inefficient brats taking my money and not giving me that amount of value in return. I could do things much more efficiently with the same amount of money.

Hence, owning property isn't attractive to me at all right now unless they can stop taxing it.

Re: Detroit wants to be the first big American city to tax land value

#306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I come from Western Massachusetts, which is characterized by smaller populations and lower budgetary allocations. The most significant budget item in most municipalities here is education, followed by road maintenance, which is often extremely costly. In Massachusetts, the basic cost estimate for repaving a standard road is approximately $1 million per mile, and this investment typically only lasts about a decade bef…

> Bridges are even more financially burdensome. Recently, we replaced a culvert that was so small I could easily jump over it, and yet it set us back $700,000. Why? Why didn't you all agree to go down to Home Depot and load up on one big short metal pipe and some cement if that's the case? How was 700K spent?

In case you're not joking, government entities in the US are not allowed to build road structures that will collapse the first time a farmer drives a loaded grain hauler over them.

Re: Detroit wants to be the first big American city to tax land value

#307
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> difficulty in valuing the land. It's rather easy to value the land: Have the owner decide what it's worth, then they pay a tax as a percentage of that valuation. Now, obviously given that system everyone's going to value their land at $0. To adjust for that land owners must be obligated to sell their land to anyone willing to buy it at the declared valuation. Such a mechanism doesn't only keep the current owners ho…

That’s a horrible idea - that means you value is only what you can afford to pay in taxes - effectively meaning the poor would be required to sell to the rich at below market rates if they can’t afford the taxes

Are you suggesting the rich people form a cartel? Otherwise, if there's more than one rich person they would outbid each other until market rates are reached. That's basically how market rates are defined.

Btw, none of the problems here are specific to LVT. You see exactly the same problems in conventional property taxes: if your land is suddenly worth a lot more, your tax bill goes up.

Re: Detroit wants to be the first big American city to tax land value

#308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are already paying taxes, Land Value Taxes just seek to be a more efficient (since they try to target rent seeking rather than profitable labor) and more just (since they target land that the owner didn't create) form of taxation. So arguing that it's effectively the government stealing your property is only a valid argument if you are arguing that all taxation is theft. If that's what you believe then that's fin…

Property taxes and wealth taxes undermine property rights in ways that normal income taxes don’t. If I earn $100 and pay tax on it, whatever’s left over is mine forever, and I never have to pay tax on that income again. If I buy $100 worth of property, I have to pay tax on it again every year forever, which basically means I’m only buying the right to rent it from the government in perpetuity. Your use of the phrase…

I used to agree with you, then I read Falkvinge's proposal of a taxless state and it changed my mind. I'm now convinced that property tax (or more accurately, land tax) is the only justified tax, or more generally, that all taxes paid must be tied explicitly and characteristic to a service rendered, and that the only services a state should be allowed to render must be administration of a commons.

You cannot defend your land property from even a marginally better equipped aggressor who seeks to take it from you. You need a court system, or for a larger aggressor, an army, to do it for you. This means that de facto, the state with the armed men owns the land. Land tax is tantamount to a fee you pay to lease it. Also it can be framed as just payment for a service rendered, that is, the service of defending your property for you. Furthermore, any entity that "owns" land property and gets protection of his claim by a court or army that does not pay a land tax is free riding.

Income taxes are unjust. By the logic of the premise, land tax that pays for anything but defense of claim to the land is unjust. Wealth taxes are unjust, as are capital gains. Tarrifs that fund a navy to protect shipments on the high seas would be just, as would registration fees to bay for highway infrastructure. The core rules are, the state must only solve a tragedy of the commons, the tax that funds such an endeavor must derive directly from benefitting from that endeavor and it must only ever be used for that endeavor. With these axioms it is easy to deduce which taxes are just and which are not, they're all payment for services rendered for a service for which a state is the optimal organization to provide.

https://falkvinge.net/2017/03/01/a-simplified-taxless-state-...

Re: Detroit wants to be the first big American city to tax land value

#309
post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't love this idea, and I suspect many others wouldn't either. If you raised your family in a house and have lived there for decades, it has intangible value to you, but not others. Yet because of this value, you must pay potentially much much more than your neighbor, who objectively speaking may have a lot of equal value. What's more, even if you pay more than you ought to, you'll never feel secure in your home,…

> What's more, even if you pay more than you ought to, you'll never feel secure in your home, knowing that at any time you may be forced to sell. That can already happen right now with conventional property taxes..

Also with land value tax without the proposed land valuation method. The difference is how in one case you're never secure in your home even if you can afford your theoretically fairly assigned tax bill. There is always someone out there rich enough to uproot a family from their home, even if you're otherwise financially secure.

Re: Detroit wants to be the first big American city to tax land value

#310
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(I'm a big proponent of LVT) The two downsides I'm aware of are difficulty in transitioning to an LVT and difficulty in valuing the land. Transitioning to an LVT means that landowners no longer capture land rents for themselves, which is a massive overnight loss in the value they hold. The solutions there typically tax only the difference in land value versus a baseline assessment. So if a lot is worth $100 before LV…

> difficulty in valuing the land This seems by _far_ the biggest difficulty, and I find it strange that this rarely comes up in LVT discussions. Even for nominally 'liquid' land it's not clear who values it or how.

> [...] and I find it strange that this rarely comes up in LVT discussions.

That's almost the most common discussion point in my experience..

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