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California to require firms to reveal carbon emissions in first law of its kind

theguardian.com

71–80 of 88 posts

Re: California to require firms to reveal carbon emissions in first law of its kind

#71
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, I'll nibble here -- I would describe myself as a Socialist, and I'm happy to have an open conversation about the question you've asked. (Unless your question was rhetorical and not intended to be a discussion.) Can I start by asking you what type of Socialism you are most concerned with? Socialism is a very broad term with different meanings to different people. For example, I am a Socialist who is against autocr…

The problem with Socialism is the requirement for others to forcibly partake in it, otherwise it doesn't work. It's not just about forcing everyone to pay higher taxes, at its core it's about rewarding everyone equally, despite the fact some people choose to work more. The only way to stop this is to force everyone to work the same amount, which cannot be done in a humane way. This means inevitably, some people will…

> at its core it's about rewarding everyone equally, despite the fact some people choose to work more

I hear this frequently, but I do not believe it is axiomatic. I believe we should provide a sense of equal minimum reward, a baseline level of food, shelter, amenities that everyone gets access to. Even if they cannot work or choose to work the minimum amount.

Again, it's important to recall that "Socialism" includes everything from Soviets to Anarchists to Democratic Socialists and many (many) flavors in between.

But it's not fundamentally antithetical to Socialism to recognize the people who choose to work more. The rewards structure might look different, depending on what flavor of Socialism you prefer, but I would expect that someone who goes above and beyond also tends to attract rewards (whether those are luxuries, time, recognition, or other things).

Even my anarchist/socialist friends would recognize that many luxuries are limited -- we cannot all have infinite bottles of aged whiskey -- but if you put in the extra time to really help out at the distillery, or really devote a lot of time to making their barrels, it stands to reason you'd be recognized for that.

I also genuinely believe that when you remove the necessity of "I need to work an excess to ensure I can afford to support my family's basic needs", the desire to work more comes from a passion for the work or for securing 'nice to haves'. There's nothing saying a worker's co-op couldn't decide to, for instance, nominate 10% of their peers each month for extra rewards or something.

Re: California to require firms to reveal carbon emissions in first law of its kind

#72

Can we just tax carbon and stop with all the bozo virtue signaling? Pretty please?

Forget taxes, first stop trillions of dollars in subsidies and growing!

Why Are Governments Still Subsidizing Fossil Fuels?https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2023-10-16/climat...

Ethanol subsidies and 40 million acres wasted just in US.

Re: California to require firms to reveal carbon emissions in first law of its kind

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they're full, it's a good thing. If we could get just 50,000 people to leave CA and go to a few swing states like PA and OH, it would be the end of the Republican party as we know it.

What is wrong with the Republican Party? Texas produces more renewable energy than California. The redneck attitude of do whatever you want on your land, and anti-regulation attitudes are far more important than political grandstanding.

Texas also produces more non-renewable energy than California.

Texas gets 8.5% of its energy from renewables. California gets 16.5%. (The state with the most from renewables is Washington with 50%, followed by South Dakota at 43%, and Maine at 38%).

For electricity the US average is 39% from renewables. Texas is a little below average at 33%. California is at 49%. (Highest is Vermont at 99+%, South Dakota at 83%, and Washington at 82%).

In terms of CO2 Mt/TWh the US average is 402. Texas is 428. California is 229. (The best are Vermont at 5, Washington at 100, Oregon at 143, and South Dakota at 145).

See:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_electri...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_electri...

Re: California to require firms to reveal carbon emissions in first law of its kind

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strictly speaking, we already do. We're taxing carbon-based fuel quite a bit. All it really does is make things more expensive though. You can say that such things are funding social services, but, realistically, all of government is funded by an unfathomable amount of debt, so raising taxes, or creating new taxes, isn't likely to change much of anything outside of increasing how much debt is available.

We tax road fuel as a proxy for road usage; it’s mostly a use tax. Use taxes are nearly optimal policy. Carbon taxes (Pigouvian taxes) are a solution to the problem of pricing externalities by incentivizing alternatives. The tax creates a wedge where consumers choose alternatives. Incentives matter and produce better outcomes by changing behavior.

If you’re going to tax gas into oblivion, you better have an affordable alternative fully ready to go or people will lose their minds. And no, “just buy a $50K electric car” isn’t a viable solution for a large segment of the population.

Re: California to require firms to reveal carbon emissions in first law of its kind

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assuming you like things like groceries that aren't grown in California.. you sort of want oil extraction and processing.

Agriculture is one of CA's largest economic outputs.

Not everything grows in California.

Re: California to require firms to reveal carbon emissions in first law of its kind

#76
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We tax road fuel as a proxy for road usage; it’s mostly a use tax. Use taxes are nearly optimal policy. Carbon taxes (Pigouvian taxes) are a solution to the problem of pricing externalities by incentivizing alternatives. The tax creates a wedge where consumers choose alternatives. Incentives matter and produce better outcomes by changing behavior.

If you’re going to tax gas into oblivion, you better have an affordable alternative fully ready to go or people will lose their minds. And no, “just buy a $50K electric car” isn’t a viable solution for a large segment of the population.

Today it’s not viable. But we don’t have to implement this as a cliff function. Start at 50$/ton and increase it to 500$ over 20 years. This gives industry a major signal to invest for the down the road changes and for technology to develop/business to adapt.

With the right signal, by 2035 BEV will be cheaper than ICE. This of course assumes we don’t let the Sierra Club prevent us from mining lithium to protect some random beetle in the desert.

Re: California to require firms to reveal carbon emissions in first law of its kind

#77
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with Socialism is the requirement for others to forcibly partake in it, otherwise it doesn't work. It's not just about forcing everyone to pay higher taxes, at its core it's about rewarding everyone equally, despite the fact some people choose to work more. The only way to stop this is to force everyone to work the same amount, which cannot be done in a humane way. This means inevitably, some people will…

> at its core it's about rewarding everyone equally, despite the fact some people choose to work more I hear this frequently, but I do not believe it is axiomatic. I believe we should provide a sense of equal minimum reward, a baseline level of food, shelter, amenities that everyone gets access to. Even if they cannot work or choose to work the minimum amount. Again, it's important to recall that "Socialism" includes…

> But it's not fundamentally antithetical to Socialism to recognize the people who choose to work more.

Fair point, and I think there are definitely enough resources to support people with disabilities or incapable of working for other extreme reasons. I guess the main discussion would be around where exactly to draw the line such that we're not forcing people to pay for those that choose to not work.

>I also genuinely believe that when you remove the necessity of "I need to work an excess to ensure I can afford to support my family's basic needs"

It depends on how we define "excess work". Unfortunately some people's excess work is another person's daily morning routine. If the productive person is not fairly rewarded, they will stop trying or even worse try something illegal or immoral. I think there are still a number of creative solutions to try, things like facilitating sponsorships for people of all ages to learn new skills, or investing in a public "linkedin" of sorts that is free and uses AI to match people with jobs. There are many creative and cheap things to try, and artificially imposing a certain "living wage" which constantly changes isn't addressing the root of the problem, which is that many people don't understand how to leverage the job market, their skills, etc.

Re: California to require firms to reveal carbon emissions in first law of its kind

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is just one step in a series of future legislation being planned in many developed countries to price carbon from imported goods.

Ok, so all the carbon moves to developing nations that don't care. What will we have achieved beyond lowering the standard of living in developed nations?

A dramatic reduction in pollution resulting in fewer deaths by respiratory hazards? And once carbon pricing for imports comes in you get to price carbon appropriately all around?

Re: California to require firms to reveal carbon emissions in first law of its kind

#79
I'm willing to bet that a substantial set of business, due to the nature of their industry, have no viable or available means to determine how much carbon they produce, much less for their suppliers or customers. What is the solution for these sorts of situations? Will they be fined out of existence?

Re: California to require firms to reveal carbon emissions in first law of its kind

#80
post #57
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well that's kind of the point, get the companies that pollute with impunity out of our communities. Things like oil fields and refineries take up so much acreage for the amount of people they employ, and many are still situated adjacent to homes.

Stop all domestic energy production and just import more from the Saudis. It's a fool-proof plan I tell ya.

I have no issue with domestic production, just when its done in places that inevitably lead to the children getting significantly elevated rates of disease due to proximity and poor land use decisions.
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