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Bootstrapping a SaaS Business in Germany: How I did it

lukashermann.dev

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Re: Bootstrapping a SaaS Business in Germany: How I did it

#71

Post by gv83 »

nforgerit wrote: post #57
LeanderK wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why is this even the first thing that comes to mind when thinking about the legal form? This is highly unethical in general and really just super selfish. F*k you if you avoid taxes, especially in a country like Germany where society paid for your university studies etc.

German here. You mean the German education system that has been going down the last 2-3 decades? Are you even aware that the German tax system is redirecting tax income from smaller companies to richer ones (e.g. if they soon introduce "reduced electricity prices" for some heavy industry companies)? Are you aware that the system taxes employees relatively high and companies and capital income pretty low with thousand…

And you have not seen Italy!

Re: Bootstrapping a SaaS Business in Germany: How I did it

#72

Post by throwaway60722 »

Luc wrote: post #58
throwaway60722 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just over the border is a country with effective income tax for self-employed businessmen around 5-15%.

Why not name the country?

There are not so many options you couldn't just check yourself... But to answer your question - Poland and Czech Republic.

Re: Bootstrapping a SaaS Business in Germany: How I did it

#73

Post by LeanderK »

wiseowise wrote: post #29
LeanderK wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why is this even the first thing that comes to mind when thinking about the legal form? This is highly unethical in general and really just super selfish. F*k you if you avoid taxes, especially in a country like Germany where society paid for your university studies etc.

> F*k you if you avoid taxes, especially in a country like Germany where society paid for your university studies etc. People can move in from other countries, you know.

> People can move in from other countries, you know.

You can also move away from germany. But you can't move to germany and avoid taxes while creating a company here (OP was literally: Bootstrapping a SaaS Business in Germany)

Re: Bootstrapping a SaaS Business in Germany: How I did it

#74

Post by FirmwareBurner »

manmal wrote: post #49
LeanderK wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know how to judge this comment? Is this essentially recommending dodging the taxes via a more complicated holding situation and the "do vacation in Germany", so essentially operate from germany? If so, I think this is highly unethical. Corporations have to pair their share to keep the society functioning...not just "normal" peoples with their salaries while all the profits get sucked into a foreign black hole…

If you spend 183+ days in Germany „on vacation“ you‘ll likely have to pay income tax there. Authorities are not _that_ dumb.

>Authorities are not _that_ dumb.

They're only dumb when it comes to investigating VW, Wirecard or some shady high level politician with strong ties to big business like Schröder or Ursula.

Re: Bootstrapping a SaaS Business in Germany: How I did it

#75

Post by LeanderK »

throwaway60722 wrote: post #31
LeanderK wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why is this even the first thing that comes to mind when thinking about the legal form? This is highly unethical in general and really just super selfish. F*k you if you avoid taxes, especially in a country like Germany where society paid for your university studies etc.

There are states with much lower taxes that also pay for education. Why should Germans pay so much? There are people who didn't go to university doing business too.

you are not forced to live and do business here. Feel free to move to another country if you don't like the taxes. But you can't just avoid the taxes because you feel like it. I don't care how much you would loose by not avoiding taxes.

Society only functions if everyone contributes. And the rest of society pays their taxes, you know. They can't avoid paying taxes on their car through a foreign holding structure. It's a slap on their face because you feel like you should have more.

Re: Bootstrapping a SaaS Business in Germany: How I did it

#76

Post by FirmwareBurner »

mbrain wrote: post #62
nforgerit wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

German here. You mean the German education system that has been going down the last 2-3 decades? Are you even aware that the German tax system is redirecting tax income from smaller companies to richer ones (e.g. if they soon introduce "reduced electricity prices" for some heavy industry companies)? Are you aware that the system taxes employees relatively high and companies and capital income pretty low with thousand…

non-German living in Germany, I couldn't agree more. When I complain about this, Germans usually reply with 'then go back to your home'.

>Germans usually reply with 'then go back to your home'

"You're country is corrupt as hell."

Eastern Europeans: "We know"

Germans : "Then go back to your country" OR "Impossible, we're Europe's number one economy!!!11one"

Re: Bootstrapping a SaaS Business in Germany: How I did it

#77

Post by FirmwareBurner »

gingerlime wrote: post #33
gumballindie wrote: post #2

This is such a european startup story - where most energy is spent setting up a company and navigating bureaucracy rather than building a product. If anyone wonders why europe has such a lower number of startups this is why. And it’s not the government at fault. It’s the culture. Like seriously just pay someone 200€ to do this on your behalf and focus on stuff that matters not the “legal gray area” of earning pocket…

pay who 200€? in Germany? just the notary fee is in the hundreds and you probably need a lawyer and an accountant for a UG/GmbH. I’m trying this now with a new venture. Already have an accountant. But they’re slow and nonresponsive. I tried shopping around and literally got turned down left and right with these types of messages: “Unfortunately we do not have the capacity to take on any new clients at the moment.” La…

> but the tax rules are such that if your center of operation is in Germany, you still need to do taxes here.

Then don't have the center of operations in Germany when there are lower-tax EU countries.

Re: Bootstrapping a SaaS Business in Germany: How I did it

#78

Post by OfSanguineFire »

throwaway60722 wrote: post #53
slow_typist wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the eighties, income tax in Germany could go up to 56%. It is much lower know. Taxes are somewhat relative in space and time.

Just over the border is a country with effective income tax for self-employed businessmen around 5-15%.

I have been self-employed under a Polish business (działalność gospodarcza) for the last few years. With income tax plus mandatory pension and health contributions, over a third of my income goes to taxes or other mandatory fees (like the requirement to have a licensed accountant keep your books). It really isn’t much different than most other EU countries. And of course one pays a comparable VAT on shopping.

Often in Poland people say “Why are you running your business here? Base it in Czech Republic!” The grass always is greener on the other side.

Re: Bootstrapping a SaaS Business in Germany: How I did it

#79

Post by LeanderK »

nforgerit wrote: post #57
LeanderK wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why is this even the first thing that comes to mind when thinking about the legal form? This is highly unethical in general and really just super selfish. F*k you if you avoid taxes, especially in a country like Germany where society paid for your university studies etc.

German here. You mean the German education system that has been going down the last 2-3 decades? Are you even aware that the German tax system is redirecting tax income from smaller companies to richer ones (e.g. if they soon introduce "reduced electricity prices" for some heavy industry companies)? Are you aware that the system taxes employees relatively high and companies and capital income pretty low with thousand…

I am sorry but you can not work in the company or build a company in the country and avoid taxes. Your taxes go directly into these things. All the rest of the society has to pay taxes, they can't avoid taxes on their car via an elaborate foreign holding structure. The only way to change it to your liking is via politics, or build it in a different country respecting their rules. Get involved in local politics, especially the state of the school system and many other things are decided on a very low level that can be directly influenced by your district.

Everyone contributes and we get back free education (our universities are still good btw. and for certain topics really good) and from what I hear about schools from parents they still work, even with expanded care times. Bürgergeld exists if you really hit a rough spot. Super cheap public transit (50€ per month!) and autobahn is still existing.

You say that what Germans lack in competence they make up with arrogance, but it's really to complain about everything and be super pessimistic all the time. You can not just choose to avoid taxes, that's just highly unethical and unfair to everyone who's paying their share and super selfish. I stand by my word:

F*k you if you avoid taxes

Re: Bootstrapping a SaaS Business in Germany: How I did it

#80

Post by FirmwareBurner »

LeanderK wrote: post #75
throwaway60722 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are states with much lower taxes that also pay for education. Why should Germans pay so much? There are people who didn't go to university doing business too.

you are not forced to live and do business here. Feel free to move to another country if you don't like the taxes. But you can't just avoid the taxes because you feel like it. I don't care how much you would loose by not avoiding taxes. Society only functions if everyone contributes. And the rest of society pays their taxes, you know. They can't avoid paying taxes on their car through a foreign holding structure. It'…

>Society only functions if everyone contributes. And the rest of society pays their taxes, you know.

Yes, everyone except German businesses dealing in cash only who don't issue receipts, and the likes of Google, Amazon, Microsoft, Airbus, NXP, IKEA, ST etc. and all these conglomerate with complex tax avoidance schemes spread across Netherlands, Ireland, Luxembourg, Lichtenstein, Switzerland and some Caribbean islands who neither fully belonging to the British or Dutch crowns nor are fully independent nations, but some fuzzy situation in between.

You see, once we let so many players legally avoid paying taxes in broad daylight, it's difficult to uphold the social contract that "we should all pay taxes" as then it turns into a crabs in a bucket situation where the veil is lifted and the Average Joe sees through the cash-grab scam that the tax system is on the working class, and will do everything in his power to avoid paying taxes as well.

If you want people to respect the social contract of the welfare state, we need to hold everyone accountable to it with no exceptions, not just the poor suckers who have no means of dodging it or fighting back, while the super wealthy are laughing all the way to the bank.

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