Ask HN: For those trying to hire how hard is it to find people currently? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: For those trying to hire how hard is it to find people currently?

#161

Post by jpp » Sun, Oct 15, 2023, 10:42 PM UTC

sideshowb wrote: post #142

jpp wrote: post #59

We finished a hiring process about 2 months ago, along with two other hires earlier in the year. As a hiring manager, 2023 has been brutal — 1,000:1 application to hire ratio (based on stats in Lever; no exaggeration). I’ve made a point to try to be as open and as fair as possible in our hiring process. We list the salaries up-front in the job description. We create per-hire ”join our team” pages that share a lot mor…

This mostly sounds good but I wonder if you'd make it better by dropping the strict postgres requirements. I've never used postgres. I've worked with umpteen technologies over the years, including lots of gis, just never needed to use postgres yet. But I know it's out there and I'm confident if I needed to, it wouldn't take more than a few days to catch up. Not a dig at you specifically but a lot of companies seem to…

I hear you! We’ve definitely had candidates we’ve talked with in the past who didn’t have experience with the tech stacks involved. In our case, we’re not suffering from a lack of qualified candidates (quite the opposite!), so we can afford to be more strict in requirements.

I remember a friend describing interviewing as a search problem. How long and how much resource is one willing to spend on a search? And then, adjust the hiring process (for employer) or job search process (for candidate) accordingly.

Re: Ask HN: For those trying to hire how hard is it to find people currently?

#162

Post by harryquach » Mon, Oct 16, 2023, 1:20 AM UTC

andrewstuart wrote: post #39

linsomniac wrote: post #23

A couple weeks ago we put a advert out on Indeed and also listed it here on HN. Initially we didn't have any further qualifications beyond the job post, which did indeed go into details on the job and requesting a cover letter. After spending a couple days of 2-3 hours each on reviewing resumes that were "only ok", we started adding additional hoops for getting resumes in, and also tried to put in a gatekeeper to rea…

This need for a cover letter is essentially asking candidates to tell you how much they love the company and how much they want the job. Why is this important beyond making the company feel loved? As a job applicant I’m not going to invest a minute in your company until you’ve read my resume and expressed an interest. Theres hundreds of companies out there employing who want your time but give nothing back. I know ne…

I recently completed a take-home coding test that solved all of the the cases given.

I was rejected because it did not pass a case I was not given and could not test against.

I hate the interview process for software engineering

Re: Ask HN: For those trying to hire how hard is it to find people currently?

#163

Post by matthewfelgate » Mon, Oct 16, 2023, 7:23 AM UTC

linsomniac wrote: post #23

A couple weeks ago we put a advert out on Indeed and also listed it here on HN. Initially we didn't have any further qualifications beyond the job post, which did indeed go into details on the job and requesting a cover letter. After spending a couple days of 2-3 hours each on reviewing resumes that were "only ok", we started adding additional hoops for getting resumes in, and also tried to put in a gatekeeper to rea…

Any company insisting on a cover letter is a big red flag.

Re: Ask HN: For those trying to hire how hard is it to find people currently?

#164

Post by nprateem » Mon, Oct 16, 2023, 8:42 AM UTC

linsomniac wrote: post #148

transcriptase wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can sit there and spend significant time per application elegantly explaining how the details I've already put in my resume are relevant to the job description, only to have it never reach a human because a poorly designed parser didn't find a keyword or ML gave it 1 point under a set score threshold. Or a human could just read the resume.

This is a Mexican standoff. You aren't willing to write a cover letter, because a machine might be reading it, and we are getting resumes that, on their own, are just a "maybe" along with 100+ other "maybes". On the other side, we have been inundated with "fire and forget" resumes that make it hard: why should we invest time in your resume when you haven't invested time in your application? In our case, we have 3 out…

Chuck them through AI and ask how suitable the person is.

Re: Ask HN: For those trying to hire how hard is it to find people currently?

#165

Post by nprateem » Mon, Oct 16, 2023, 8:44 AM UTC

linsomniac wrote: post #145

austin-cheney wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience working in large Java shops for over a decade this is almost never true. Many Java developers are mortified by JavaScript and typically prefer Angular framework because it imposes a bloated OOP MVVM model that Java developers find more familiar. CSS is like fatal kryptonite (Superman poison) to most Java developers. This could be why that employer is not happy with the quality of candidates. They are…

Considering we have only gotten a handful of cover letters, we are having to go by the resume. So if your resume has no Vue and/or no Java, we're forced to read between the lines and guess that there's a reason. Not so much an iron fist, but 95+% of resumes don't convey any passion, so it's hard to say this guy has a passion that will translate to Vue+Java.

Anyone with half a brain can pick up vue in a weekend. Your problem appears to be a complete disinterest in investing in new hires.

Re: Ask HN: For those trying to hire how hard is it to find people currently?

#166

Post by juvvel » Mon, Oct 16, 2023, 10:23 AM UTC

austin-cheney wrote: post #141

Gud wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not? Many people thrive when working with the full stack. Why does everything need to be so compartmentalized?

In my experience working in large Java shops for over a decade this is almost never true. Many Java developers are mortified by JavaScript and typically prefer Angular framework because it imposes a bloated OOP MVVM model that Java developers find more familiar. CSS is like fatal kryptonite (Superman poison) to most Java developers. This could be why that employer is not happy with the quality of candidates. They are…

So you're saying that someone who likes both OOP and Javascript and more functional-style programming could be a sought after candidate?

Re: Ask HN: For those trying to hire how hard is it to find people currently?

#167

Post by juvvel » Mon, Oct 16, 2023, 10:28 AM UTC

linsomniac wrote: post #147

taurath wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But, yeah, we're having a hard time finding full-stack people that can hit the ground running with Java and Vue Why not get people who’ve worked with Java and other frontend frameworks, or Vue and other object oriented languages? In my first coding role I knew absolutely no C#, just some JS but I was contributing to the codebase within a week. Most of the particulars of your codebase will be particular to your code…

We are open to that, but without getting many cover letters it's very hard to pick out the people who have the passion to learn new things, from the people happy with what they are doing. It's hard to tell the people who are doing Angular but interested in trying Vue from the people who find Angular a better fit for their Java sensibilities and don't want to do Vue.

That's interesting to hear, because my impression was that software/web development is a field full of people who are self-taught or at least very enthusiastic about learning new tech. I am personally pretty undogmatic when it comes to languages or tools and I assumed most developers who care about solving problems are the same way.

Re: Ask HN: For those trying to hire how hard is it to find people currently?

#168

Post by eadmund » Mon, Oct 16, 2023, 1:08 PM UTC

andrewstuart wrote: post #39

linsomniac wrote: post #23

A couple weeks ago we put a advert out on Indeed and also listed it here on HN. Initially we didn't have any further qualifications beyond the job post, which did indeed go into details on the job and requesting a cover letter. After spending a couple days of 2-3 hours each on reviewing resumes that were "only ok", we started adding additional hoops for getting resumes in, and also tried to put in a gatekeeper to rea…

This need for a cover letter is essentially asking candidates to tell you how much they love the company and how much they want the job. Why is this important beyond making the company feel loved? As a job applicant I’m not going to invest a minute in your company until you’ve read my resume and expressed an interest. Theres hundreds of companies out there employing who want your time but give nothing back. I know ne…

> This need for a cover letter is essentially asking candidates to tell you how much they love the company and how much they want the job.

No, and that is exactly the wrong sort of cover letter. A cover letter is a letter from the human applicant to the human hiring manager explaining why he feels that he is a good fit for the position. ‘But that’s the resumé!’ you might say. No, a resume is a list of relevant training, skills and previous employment. Although not traditionally machine-readable, a resumé is basically input into a process machine (we want someone who has been programming in Java for twenty years; this candidate has done it for 24; awesome). The cover letter is input to humans.

Humans whom you will potentially be working with, potentially for years. It seems reasonable for them to get an idea of your communication skills and empathy. Exercise that empathy: put your self in their shoes, and imagine what it is like to receive hundreds of resumés. What would you want to receive from a candidate? What would make your hiring decision easier or harder? Having figured that out, communicate it.

> As a job applicant I’m not going to invest a minute in your company until you’ve read my resume and expressed an interest.

It’s a free world. You don’t owe hiring companies anything. Of course, they don’t owe you anything, either. In a booming hiring market, you may find that you can easily find positions without investing in leads; in a softer market, you may find less success.

Re: Ask HN: For those trying to hire how hard is it to find people currently?

#169

Post by eadmund » Mon, Oct 16, 2023, 1:15 PM UTC

bilsbie wrote: post #29

linsomniac wrote: post #23

A couple weeks ago we put a advert out on Indeed and also listed it here on HN. Initially we didn't have any further qualifications beyond the job post, which did indeed go into details on the job and requesting a cover letter. After spending a couple days of 2-3 hours each on reviewing resumes that were "only ok", we started adding additional hoops for getting resumes in, and also tried to put in a gatekeeper to rea…

My boomer grandfather called and wants his cover letter back. Jk but why not ask for a five minute coding challenge instead of a cover letter. Eg decode this string and include it in the subject line.

> My boomer grandfather called and wants his cover letter back.

That’s not an argument, it’s an ageist ad hominem.

> why not ask for a five minute coding challenge instead of a cover letter

Why not both? There are two aspects to any hire: hard skills and soft skills. The hard skills are the things a resumé can relate and a coding challenge can demonstrate. But we do not hire automata (if we did, we might as well just use ChatGPT or Copilot); we hire human beings who will be working in teams with others, who will need to take input from other human beings and interpret it, try to figure out what is being unsaid but which should be said & so forth. Those soft skills are the hardest part of the job to hire for, and in many ways the hardest to develop.

The cover letter is a the equivalent of a five minute coding challenge for soft skills. ‘Put yourself in the hiring manager’s shoes. What would he like to read which make you stand out from the other candidates?’

Re: Ask HN: For those trying to hire how hard is it to find people currently?

#170

Post by eadmund » Mon, Oct 16, 2023, 1:22 PM UTC

lylejantzi3rd wrote: post #65

e12e wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In many jobs, if you can't tailor your CV to the job, and can't write half a page rationale - you probably can't collect, evaluate and summarize business and technical requirements - ie: you can't do the tricky part of software engineering. Sure, being fluent at the level of fizz-buzz in a relevant programming language is useful too - but honestly, that bar is lower. I realize that people that can't code their way ou…

> if you can't tailor your CV to the job, and can't write half a page rationale There's "can't" and there's "won't." Programmers in demand won't spend the time, which leaves you with programmers who are desperate enough for work to jump through your hoops (unless you're FAANG or a unicorn). You're effectively filtering your candidate pool down to people you don't want to hire. Round and round we go.

The cover letter is a proxy for soft skills. I am pretty sure that I don’t want to hire a candidate who believes that soft skills are a waste of time. He might be brilliant, but he sounds terrible to supervise, work for or be supervised by.