Why decline in generalists leads to disjointed games and harms tool quality • Hacker News Board

Re: Why decline in generalists leads to disjointed games and harms tool quality

#81

Post by thfuran » Mon, Oct 16, 2023, 9:22 AM UTC

seventhtiger wrote: post #74

brandensilva wrote: post #27

I tell you what, the Diablo 4 game is a perfect example of disjointedness that comes from pure specialists with little to no one who is a generalist that can bridge departments together in a way that makes for a better game and experience. And while they have made strides to implementing much of the community feedback for Season 2 many months later after much of the gamers have left, it isn't the same thing as having…

I think Diablo 4 is really well made but I keep getting surprised by some goofs in what I would consider the most important parts of the game. Like even when I make a small scale RPG, my damage formulas and scaling and so on are my bread and butter. I obsess over them. I would accept being wrong about the resulting experience and having to adjust, but to me it's really unacceptable to have oversights and mistakes the…

What makes you say that the game is well made of many of its core systems are defective?

Re: Why decline in generalists leads to disjointed games and harms tool quality

#82

Post by Aeolun » Mon, Oct 16, 2023, 9:35 AM UTC

oooyay wrote: post #33

This has probably hit the enterprise software world as well, at least from what I can tell. A lot of people are solidly in frontend or backend; backend tends to be even narrowed into asynchronous systems, identity, etc. Finding people who have some high to medium level knowledge in most of the landscape, a more low level background in general computing, and can dig into specific subjects when they need to is exceedin…

What I think is surprising is that even as a generalist you are often more suited to diagnose specialized problems, because you can look further than your own area of expertise.

Re: Why decline in generalists leads to disjointed games and harms tool quality

#83

Post by pydry » Mon, Oct 16, 2023, 9:44 AM UTC

makeitdouble wrote: post #60

meheleventyone wrote: post #58

I’ve worked in games for twenty years and can safely say there are way more generalists today than there have ever been. Better tools and more awareness simply mean there are way more people making games. Even within large game teams you’ll also find loads of generalists. The issue has never been a lack but that the industry itself crushes you into a box and insists you don’t exist. I’ve sat in meetings where general…

In usual business environments, generalists are usually not very valued either, but in indirect ways: it's easier to ask for better conditions if you can boast having unique skills or be strong in a specific niche, and a true "generalist" will be expected to move to a management or facilitator role, which makes them regress their technical abilities to some amount, which in turn pushes them to further move down that…

Ive noticed this too. A practical side effect is that most bugs in business context seem to emerge in "no man's land" areas of responsibility - e.g. not in the kubernetes system run by the kubernetes expert and not in the backend service built by the backend engineer but due to subtle interactions between the two.

Sometimes the intersection point issues are due to a breakdown in communication between the two experts but sometimes its due to a lack of knowledge overlap - i.e. the lack of a generalist on either side of the divide.

Re: Why decline in generalists leads to disjointed games and harms tool quality

#84

Post by Karellen » Mon, Oct 16, 2023, 9:50 AM UTC

thfuran wrote: post #81

seventhtiger wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Diablo 4 is really well made but I keep getting surprised by some goofs in what I would consider the most important parts of the game. Like even when I make a small scale RPG, my damage formulas and scaling and so on are my bread and butter. I obsess over them. I would accept being wrong about the resulting experience and having to adjust, but to me it's really unacceptable to have oversights and mistakes the…

What makes you say that the game is well made of many of its core systems are defective?

If the implementation of a poor algorithm is robust and bug-free, that would be something that is well-made, despite being bad.

Consider a chair that is sturdy and load-bearing, while still being lightweight, but it wildly uncomfortable to sit on.

Re: Why decline in generalists leads to disjointed games and harms tool quality

#85

Post by seventhtiger » Mon, Oct 16, 2023, 9:51 AM UTC

thfuran wrote: post #81

seventhtiger wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Diablo 4 is really well made but I keep getting surprised by some goofs in what I would consider the most important parts of the game. Like even when I make a small scale RPG, my damage formulas and scaling and so on are my bread and butter. I obsess over them. I would accept being wrong about the resulting experience and having to adjust, but to me it's really unacceptable to have oversights and mistakes the…

What makes you say that the game is well made of many of its core systems are defective?

Usually games with deep development issues have those issues show up everywhere. Not so in Diablo 4.

The art direction is great, they produced a massive amount of assets at a very high quality, the story is great by Diablo standards, the marketing was good, the tech is pretty good.

The player experience is still very good and very high quality. I usually find the only people who complain are the hardcore players. It makes sense because once you've run out of campaign content, you really have to rely on those core mechanics to keep the game going.

A lot of the people involved are competent and have a good track record. I just don't understand why the foundations are shaky. They're not even innovating so much on what an ARPG is supposed to be.

Re: Why decline in generalists leads to disjointed games and harms tool quality

#86

Post by MrScruff » Mon, Oct 16, 2023, 9:53 AM UTC

I think a good approach is mastering at least one discipline, but having a foundational knowledge of all the other disciplines in your field.

I know a lot of people who have almost zero understanding of what their colleagues are doing and that creates a lot of unneccesary friction during collaboration.

Re: Why decline in generalists leads to disjointed games and harms tool quality

#87

Post by epups » Mon, Oct 16, 2023, 9:54 AM UTC

physicsguy wrote: post #49

softsound wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you think most indies are? I'd consider most indies much more generalist. You can't ever know a whole field but you can know pieces of it and once you learn one system it can be easier to know another. I think for example programmers often make very good designers as they will think though problems, handle attention to detail, and work to often find multiple solutions if need be... Wait that sounds like every…

It’s rare that Indie games are the same technical sophistication though. Nothing wrong with them at all but the scale is just totally different, it’s like running a small bakery shop vs an industrial factory churning out bread for supermarkets

Yes, of course there is a trade-off. The specialists are likely much better at executing their particular functions. However, they still compete for the same market, sometimes surprisingly well. AAA games constantly feel like an art gallery where you are there to appreciate the beauty, while indie games have this soul and cohesion that is likely boosted by generalists as described in the article.

Re: Why decline in generalists leads to disjointed games and harms tool quality

#88

Post by justanotherjoe » Mon, Oct 16, 2023, 10:04 AM UTC

Inviz wrote: post #79

justanotherjoe wrote: post #66

This article came in a suspiciously close time frameas Timothy Cain's (Fallout dev) youtube video ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ihX2e9dnYM&t=624s )

At the time you posted this, the article didnt have the huge screencap of him from that video?

this is embarassing. I didn't read the article. I'm sorry for the bad time people must have had reading my useless comment.

Re: Why decline in generalists leads to disjointed games and harms tool quality

#89

Post by gmerc » Mon, Oct 16, 2023, 10:11 AM UTC

I joined a large publisher with a specifically created hybrid role spanning two disciplines. I had it written in contract and title.

Within a year HR approached me to change it because “it confuses people”.

When asked who was confused, … they didn’t answer.

They came back every year with the same request until I left.

Once a certain size is hit in an organization, the org chat and job titles develop an inescapable gravitational pull that only very senior / unreasonably successful people can escape over time.

Re: Why decline in generalists leads to disjointed games and harms tool quality

#90

Post by johnnyanmac » Mon, Oct 16, 2023, 10:13 AM UTC

makeitdouble wrote: post #60

meheleventyone wrote: post #58

I’ve worked in games for twenty years and can safely say there are way more generalists today than there have ever been. Better tools and more awareness simply mean there are way more people making games. Even within large game teams you’ll also find loads of generalists. The issue has never been a lack but that the industry itself crushes you into a box and insists you don’t exist. I’ve sat in meetings where general…

In usual business environments, generalists are usually not very valued either, but in indirect ways: it's easier to ask for better conditions if you can boast having unique skills or be strong in a specific niche, and a true "generalist" will be expected to move to a management or facilitator role, which makes them regress their technical abilities to some amount, which in turn pushes them to further move down that…

>I find it fascinating that the gaming industry is faced with similar issues with generalists, where I was expecting a lot more pragmatic choices and better paths for individual contributors even if they're not ultra specialized.

It's a similar solution to other tech: generalists aren't vauled as much at huge studios, but they thrive in smaller studios. So the "exit plan" for a generalist involves hitting the ground floor early on an up and coming studio and getting a significant stake in a successful release.

And like those unicorns, those new studios are a huge risk. But hey, at least these days you have a huge rabid fanbase of hardcore gamers who will foam over each PR release as long as you do some form of advertising.